1
00:00:03,100 --> 00:00:00,410
[Music]

2
00:00:20,030 --> 00:00:03,110
foreign

3
00:01:28,990 --> 00:00:37,650
[Music]

4
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,550
all right

5
00:01:41,330 --> 00:01:38,990
[Music]

6
00:01:42,649 --> 00:01:41,340
from the burnover district at the

7
00:01:44,630 --> 00:01:42,659
foothills of the Great Northern

8
00:01:46,850 --> 00:01:44,640
Wilderness I bid you all good evening

9
00:01:48,469 --> 00:01:46,860
good morning good afternoon wherever you

10
00:01:50,690 --> 00:01:48,479
may be Across the Nation around the

11
00:01:52,730 --> 00:01:50,700
world my name is Leah Prime and this is

12
00:01:55,010 --> 00:01:52,740
the invisible night school thank you so

13
00:01:57,050 --> 00:01:55,020
much for joining the ins faculty this

14
00:01:59,149 --> 00:01:57,060
evening whether live or recorded we're

15
00:02:01,429 --> 00:01:59,159
so glad you're here you can check out

16
00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:01,439
the video description for a link to our

17
00:02:05,690 --> 00:02:03,360
open Discord server to connect with

18
00:02:07,850 --> 00:02:05,700
different guests and hosts

19
00:02:10,609 --> 00:02:07,860
without any further delay I'd like to

20
00:02:12,650 --> 00:02:10,619
welcome the brilliant Campbell

21
00:02:14,690 --> 00:02:12,660
and our resident dubious Layman Nick

22
00:02:16,850 --> 00:02:14,700
coffin Collis

23
00:02:19,010 --> 00:02:16,860
how are you guys doing pretty good very

24
00:02:21,710 --> 00:02:19,020
well how are you doing

25
00:02:24,589 --> 00:02:21,720
It's Just Another Day in Paradise man

26
00:02:26,270 --> 00:02:24,599
excellent I'm battening down for the uh

27
00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:26,280
the impending blizzard

28
00:02:29,570 --> 00:02:28,260
oh that's right yeah there's supposed to

29
00:02:31,250 --> 00:02:29,580
be like a big snowstorm to hit the

30
00:02:34,130 --> 00:02:31,260
Midwest a lot of people are moving their

31
00:02:35,809 --> 00:02:34,140
travel around to Northeast as well yeah

32
00:02:38,210 --> 00:02:35,819
we're gonna get hit hard up here in

33
00:02:40,790 --> 00:02:38,220
Ontario I've got my generator Ready to

34
00:02:45,050 --> 00:02:40,800
Go premium gas so the doesn't freeze

35
00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:45,060
it's crazy but yes tonight though I am

36
00:02:49,130 --> 00:02:47,700
very excited to speak to Our Guest uh

37
00:02:50,750 --> 00:02:49,140
I've been really looking forward to this

38
00:02:53,030 --> 00:02:50,760
one me too

39
00:02:55,430 --> 00:02:53,040
yes all right I guess I guess that's my

40
00:02:57,770 --> 00:02:55,440
cue I'll go ahead with the intro so

41
00:02:59,509 --> 00:02:57,780
tonight we are joined by Jack Brewer the

42
00:03:01,610 --> 00:02:59,519
author of The Grays have been framed

43
00:03:05,089 --> 00:03:01,620
exploitation in the UFO community and

44
00:03:07,550 --> 00:03:05,099
Wayward Suns nycap and the IC

45
00:03:08,830 --> 00:03:07,560
he blogs at the UFO Trail which you can

46
00:03:10,729 --> 00:03:08,840
find at

47
00:03:13,250 --> 00:03:10,739
ufotrail.blogspot.com and is on the

48
00:03:16,009 --> 00:03:13,260
board of expanding Frontiers research

49
00:03:18,589 --> 00:03:16,019
so Jack welcome to the invisible night

50
00:03:20,930 --> 00:03:18,599
school we are so happy you're here I'm

51
00:03:23,390 --> 00:03:20,940
very happy to be here thanks for having

52
00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:23,400
me you guys

53
00:03:27,050 --> 00:03:25,560
awesome course

54
00:03:28,550 --> 00:03:27,060
um I'm so sorry that Lewis isn't here

55
00:03:30,170 --> 00:03:28,560
since I know he's done a number of

56
00:03:31,729 --> 00:03:30,180
interviews with you

57
00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:31,739
um or at least definitely one actually

58
00:03:36,170 --> 00:03:33,420
which I Linked In the show description

59
00:03:37,430 --> 00:03:36,180
but he was kind enough to pass on a few

60
00:03:40,250 --> 00:03:37,440
questions

61
00:03:43,930 --> 00:03:40,260
um for us to go through this evening

62
00:03:47,149 --> 00:03:43,940
good good yes yes

63
00:03:49,789 --> 00:03:47,159
we talked to Louise and

64
00:03:52,550 --> 00:03:49,799
um you as well Leah and I'm looking

65
00:03:55,030 --> 00:03:52,560
forward to spending some time with Nick

66
00:03:57,710 --> 00:03:55,040
and Campbell as well

67
00:03:59,990 --> 00:03:57,720
the Motley Crew here tonight oh sorry

68
00:04:02,449 --> 00:04:00,000
Campbell go ahead oh no it's fine I was

69
00:04:05,390 --> 00:04:02,459
just wondering if Jack could give us a

70
00:04:08,750 --> 00:04:05,400
little bit of a rundown of what you've

71
00:04:10,970 --> 00:04:08,760
been working on historically uh in this

72
00:04:12,830 --> 00:04:10,980
UFO subject and maybe a bit of what

73
00:04:15,350 --> 00:04:12,840
motivated you get into it initially just

74
00:04:19,789 --> 00:04:15,360
to uh bring everybody up to speed

75
00:04:22,490 --> 00:04:19,799
sure like most people I had an interest

76
00:04:24,590 --> 00:04:22,500
in the topic you know that that's what

77
00:04:27,050 --> 00:04:24,600
what brings people to these crazy

78
00:04:31,249 --> 00:04:27,060
conferences and start reading these

79
00:04:34,070 --> 00:04:31,259
paperbacks is generally we saw something

80
00:04:37,189 --> 00:04:34,080
or we know people that do or we were

81
00:04:38,090 --> 00:04:37,199
interested as kids and and or all of the

82
00:04:43,430 --> 00:04:38,100
above

83
00:04:48,110 --> 00:04:43,440
and the more I got into it and and I was

84
00:04:51,010 --> 00:04:48,120
sincerely interested so I I was really

85
00:04:54,430 --> 00:04:51,020
frustrated when I would buy the latest

86
00:04:58,909 --> 00:04:54,440
paperbacks or attend the latest lectures

87
00:05:02,090 --> 00:04:58,919
and this was like early 1990s

88
00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:02,100
um but before the internet was you know

89
00:05:09,350 --> 00:05:06,000
is around as it is now and you had to

90
00:05:11,390 --> 00:05:09,360
you know like make travel plans and go

91
00:05:15,290 --> 00:05:11,400
meet these people and things like that

92
00:05:18,650 --> 00:05:15,300
and I would get pretty frustrated and it

93
00:05:21,230 --> 00:05:18,660
became apparent rather quickly that

94
00:05:23,990 --> 00:05:21,240
there was a lot of Sizzle compared to

95
00:05:27,650 --> 00:05:24,000
the amount of steak and

96
00:05:31,010 --> 00:05:27,660
um frequently uh they you know it was

97
00:05:33,529 --> 00:05:31,020
all to be revealed and you walk away

98
00:05:36,650 --> 00:05:33,539
kind of scratching your head going well

99
00:05:41,749 --> 00:05:36,660
I I guess that was interesting

100
00:05:42,650 --> 00:05:41,759
and so because I'm interested I started

101
00:05:45,230 --> 00:05:42,660
um

102
00:05:48,010 --> 00:05:45,240
trying to get with with some of the

103
00:05:53,749 --> 00:05:48,020
higher profile people at the conferences

104
00:05:58,490 --> 00:05:53,759
email them get a hold of them and uh

105
00:06:02,230 --> 00:05:58,500
the the responses to questions

106
00:06:06,469 --> 00:06:02,240
um as Leah puts it sometimes the the

107
00:06:07,689 --> 00:06:06,479
reasonable interrogation process was um

108
00:06:10,969 --> 00:06:07,699
not good

109
00:06:13,070 --> 00:06:10,979
and um this would began to be a

110
00:06:17,629 --> 00:06:13,080
understatement of the century there Jack

111
00:06:19,909 --> 00:06:17,639
yeah yeah it is it the and like

112
00:06:24,409 --> 00:06:19,919
specifically with people I was getting

113
00:06:28,129 --> 00:06:24,419
in touch with like Bud Hopkins and uh

114
00:06:30,230 --> 00:06:28,139
people he had worked with and seeing

115
00:06:33,290 --> 00:06:30,240
that there were sometimes conflicting

116
00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:33,300
stories even about the witnesses and

117
00:06:38,450 --> 00:06:36,000
what went in the book that sometimes

118
00:06:41,450 --> 00:06:38,460
they would would

119
00:06:43,969 --> 00:06:41,460
um between the lines of what they were

120
00:06:46,129 --> 00:06:43,979
saying and their lack of willingness to

121
00:06:50,689 --> 00:06:46,139
talk on the record

122
00:06:52,909 --> 00:06:50,699
pretty easy to begin to surmise that

123
00:06:55,730 --> 00:06:52,919
they had different accounts of their

124
00:06:59,870 --> 00:06:55,740
interaction then we're making to these

125
00:07:02,930 --> 00:06:59,880
people's paperback books and you you

126
00:07:06,890 --> 00:07:02,940
know this was concerning and eventually

127
00:07:09,409 --> 00:07:06,900
I began to write a blog in 2010 I

128
00:07:10,730 --> 00:07:09,419
started the UFO Trail

129
00:07:12,290 --> 00:07:10,740
and

130
00:07:17,629 --> 00:07:12,300
it

131
00:07:22,309 --> 00:07:17,639
uh places where the intelligence

132
00:07:25,309 --> 00:07:22,319
community and the UFO genre overlap I I

133
00:07:28,969 --> 00:07:25,319
got interested in that I got interested

134
00:07:33,050 --> 00:07:28,979
in cases that there there seemed to be

135
00:07:36,170 --> 00:07:33,060
deception involved and uh unclear

136
00:07:39,050 --> 00:07:36,180
motives it's one thing when people are

137
00:07:43,550 --> 00:07:39,060
just hoaxing something for for Laughs

138
00:07:44,930 --> 00:07:43,560
it's another thing when it involves

139
00:07:49,249 --> 00:07:44,940
um

140
00:07:53,450 --> 00:07:49,259
people that if they are sane would not

141
00:07:55,930 --> 00:07:53,460
spend the resources and energy to

142
00:07:59,510 --> 00:07:55,940
um undertake some of these complex

143
00:08:01,249 --> 00:07:59,520
hoaxes that that have been been done

144
00:08:03,950 --> 00:08:01,259
over the years

145
00:08:07,010 --> 00:08:03,960
and a lot of times there's political

146
00:08:09,409 --> 00:08:07,020
implications things like that but but uh

147
00:08:11,510 --> 00:08:09,419
it's easy to you know get sidetracked

148
00:08:14,870 --> 00:08:11,520
with all this but

149
00:08:19,909 --> 00:08:14,880
um that's how I got involved was I was

150
00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:19,919
sincerely interested and because I was

151
00:08:26,330 --> 00:08:22,560
um I was actually trying to drill down

152
00:08:28,850 --> 00:08:26,340
through stories that that were

153
00:08:32,050 --> 00:08:28,860
um widely published in paperbacks and

154
00:08:36,769 --> 00:08:32,060
magazines and documentaries and film

155
00:08:40,430 --> 00:08:36,779
that were not nearly as Sensational as

156
00:08:45,170 --> 00:08:40,440
and interesting the closer you look if

157
00:08:47,389 --> 00:08:45,180
not outright deceptive it became you

158
00:08:50,769 --> 00:08:47,399
know increasingly apparent like with

159
00:08:54,889 --> 00:08:50,779
David Jacobs for instance

160
00:08:58,070 --> 00:08:54,899
just you know uh what what can only be

161
00:09:02,210 --> 00:08:58,080
described as just horrible failures and

162
00:09:06,290 --> 00:09:02,220
and ethics and misrepresentations of

163
00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:06,300
scientific study and so I felt like I

164
00:09:10,970 --> 00:09:09,360
had some things to blog about and that

165
00:09:13,310 --> 00:09:10,980
led to

166
00:09:15,110 --> 00:09:13,320
um the book the grades had been framed

167
00:09:21,050 --> 00:09:15,120
and

168
00:09:25,070 --> 00:09:23,750
so when you uh you you mentioned the uh

169
00:09:27,110 --> 00:09:25,080
the intelligence Community essentially

170
00:09:28,310 --> 00:09:27,120
interacting with the UFO Community I

171
00:09:30,530 --> 00:09:28,320
think for

172
00:09:31,730 --> 00:09:30,540
um a lot of people and especially newer

173
00:09:34,490 --> 00:09:31,740
people the subject they immediately

174
00:09:36,530 --> 00:09:34,500
think of Richard Doty and the the

175
00:09:39,590 --> 00:09:36,540
benoits situation but in your research

176
00:09:41,110 --> 00:09:39,600
you found that that goes a lot further

177
00:09:43,910 --> 00:09:41,120
back right

178
00:09:48,110 --> 00:09:43,920
yes it does

179
00:09:52,730 --> 00:09:48,120
um when I even up to the time into the

180
00:09:53,690 --> 00:09:52,740
2000s when I was considering starting a

181
00:09:58,070 --> 00:09:53,700
blog

182
00:10:00,590 --> 00:09:58,080
I I wasn't largely interested in the

183
00:10:04,850 --> 00:10:00,600
intelligence Community I felt like it

184
00:10:08,509 --> 00:10:04,860
was probably an aspect of the UFO

185
00:10:10,210 --> 00:10:08,519
subculture and I came to view that the

186
00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:10,220
other way around

187
00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:14,700
that the UFO subculture was and an

188
00:10:20,590 --> 00:10:18,240
aspect of the uh Global and United

189
00:10:24,530 --> 00:10:20,600
States intelligence community

190
00:10:28,610 --> 00:10:24,540
and yes indeed from

191
00:10:32,870 --> 00:10:28,620
um the the literal uh launching of the

192
00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:32,880
Central Intelligence community in 1947

193
00:10:36,490 --> 00:10:35,519
and the eventual

194
00:10:40,610 --> 00:10:36,500
um

195
00:10:44,509 --> 00:10:40,620
incorporation of nycap you know today

196
00:10:47,569 --> 00:10:44,519
was pretty much considered the largest

197
00:10:50,449 --> 00:10:47,579
and most successful UFO research

198
00:10:54,110 --> 00:10:50,459
organization ever launched um got the

199
00:10:57,370 --> 00:10:54,120
First Congressional hearings things like

200
00:11:02,990 --> 00:10:57,380
that in the 1960s

201
00:11:05,990 --> 00:11:03,000
uh one can only surmise through research

202
00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:06,000
that the CIA and the intelligence

203
00:11:12,910 --> 00:11:09,180
Community were deeply involved and

204
00:11:17,150 --> 00:11:12,920
interested in in the activities of nycap

205
00:11:19,449 --> 00:11:17,160
and even that in itself to me as I

206
00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:19,459
continued to research it felt like

207
00:11:29,329 --> 00:11:24,720
another story that is misrepresented

208
00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:29,339
um from the pro UFO

209
00:11:36,590 --> 00:11:32,640
faction of the community

210
00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:36,600
and that it's really easy to blame all

211
00:11:41,990 --> 00:11:39,180
that on the CIA must have been

212
00:11:45,889 --> 00:11:42,000
investigating UFOs they must have been

213
00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:45,899
wanting to know who made your key host

214
00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:49,500
sources were and this kind of thing but

215
00:11:55,310 --> 00:11:52,800
a closer look again when you drill down

216
00:11:56,990 --> 00:11:55,320
and you look at the actual documents and

217
00:11:59,449 --> 00:11:57,000
you look at the letters that were

218
00:12:01,310 --> 00:11:59,459
exchanged between these people the

219
00:12:04,009 --> 00:12:01,320
things they were talking about the

220
00:12:07,250 --> 00:12:04,019
things they weren't talking about

221
00:12:09,230 --> 00:12:07,260
uh it it becomes increasingly apparent

222
00:12:13,970 --> 00:12:09,240
that the

223
00:12:17,030 --> 00:12:13,980
um nycat Founders had deep involvement

224
00:12:20,810 --> 00:12:17,040
with the UFO Community or with the

225
00:12:23,329 --> 00:12:20,820
intelligence Community with the CIA uh

226
00:12:28,310 --> 00:12:23,339
there's there's been lawsuits that that

227
00:12:31,250 --> 00:12:28,320
tried to uh get some of the CIA records

228
00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:31,260
on some of these Founders and it was

229
00:12:40,130 --> 00:12:36,980
interesting to me that uh one one

230
00:12:43,610 --> 00:12:40,140
journalists in particular in the 1970s

231
00:12:46,810 --> 00:12:43,620
that sued for the records of a man named

232
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:46,820
Nicholas de Roquefort that was a nycap

233
00:12:54,650 --> 00:12:50,399
organizer uh was not coming at it from

234
00:12:57,790 --> 00:12:54,660
the UFO angle at all he there I don't

235
00:13:00,889 --> 00:12:57,800
think he was the least interested in

236
00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:00,899
UFOs he was interested in Nicholas

237
00:13:07,009 --> 00:13:04,200
derokee for its activity and what's

238
00:13:11,329 --> 00:13:07,019
known as the China Lobby in Washington

239
00:13:15,250 --> 00:13:11,339
D.C and his involvement in political

240
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:15,260
Affairs and lobbying Congress and he had

241
00:13:21,829 --> 00:13:19,200
meetings and connections with

242
00:13:24,050 --> 00:13:21,839
um influential people all the way to the

243
00:13:27,290 --> 00:13:24,060
Joint Chiefs of Staff he was meeting

244
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:27,300
with and so

245
00:13:33,410 --> 00:13:30,480
um this one journalist felt that you

246
00:13:35,810 --> 00:13:33,420
know he he he was for a number of

247
00:13:39,530 --> 00:13:35,820
reasons I go over in the book he was

248
00:13:42,110 --> 00:13:39,540
convinced that darogue for it was a CIA

249
00:13:45,410 --> 00:13:42,120
asset and

250
00:13:48,769 --> 00:13:45,420
so he he sued for the records was

251
00:13:49,730 --> 00:13:48,779
unsuccessful the judge felt wrote that

252
00:13:52,790 --> 00:13:49,740
uh

253
00:13:55,490 --> 00:13:52,800
these kinds of things a a an

254
00:13:58,129 --> 00:13:55,500
intelligence agency needs to be able to

255
00:14:03,230 --> 00:13:58,139
protect its sources and means the judge

256
00:14:06,110 --> 00:14:03,240
felt and uh if such records exist

257
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:06,120
sided with the CIA that they didn't have

258
00:14:12,530 --> 00:14:09,120
to release them but I felt it very

259
00:14:15,470 --> 00:14:12,540
interesting that uh he wasn't even

260
00:14:19,190 --> 00:14:15,480
interested in UFOs it was about all the

261
00:14:22,009 --> 00:14:19,200
political and spy Intrigue which to me

262
00:14:26,449 --> 00:14:22,019
makes it all the more apparent that the

263
00:14:29,690 --> 00:14:26,459
UFO thing was absurd to think that uh

264
00:14:36,650 --> 00:14:29,700
this guy recreationally decided he'd

265
00:14:43,189 --> 00:14:39,650
you were Silly and and he was by far

266
00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:43,199
from the only one that that had

267
00:14:53,090 --> 00:14:48,600
um what 70 years later are clear ties to

268
00:14:55,790 --> 00:14:53,100
intelligence agencies that uh in

269
00:14:56,990 --> 00:14:55,800
hindsight we might suppose

270
00:15:01,850 --> 00:14:57,000
um

271
00:15:05,090 --> 00:15:01,860
the the nycat may have been intended to

272
00:15:08,810 --> 00:15:05,100
um act as a financial conduit for the

273
00:15:09,889 --> 00:15:08,820
CIA to distribute funds it may have been

274
00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:09,899
to

275
00:15:21,230 --> 00:15:16,980
spies around the globe under the guise

276
00:15:23,329 --> 00:15:21,240
of collecting UFO information so I say

277
00:15:27,889 --> 00:15:23,339
that because some other people that were

278
00:15:31,550 --> 00:15:27,899
involved with organizing nycat uh ran a

279
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:31,560
PR and consulting firm that had

280
00:15:37,790 --> 00:15:34,800
contracts in China and sent

281
00:15:41,509 --> 00:15:37,800
representatives to China that were

282
00:15:44,990 --> 00:15:41,519
contracted just for that work that in

283
00:15:46,129 --> 00:15:45,000
hindsight is a little suspicious and

284
00:15:49,370 --> 00:15:46,139
um the

285
00:15:53,030 --> 00:15:49,380
the company they were contracted with I

286
00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:53,040
I obtained letters from the director of

287
00:16:00,290 --> 00:15:55,980
Central Intelligence that indicated this

288
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:00,300
company was a CIA asset as well and just

289
00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:02,639
uh I could just go on and on and on

290
00:16:09,009 --> 00:16:05,940
about all the circumstances so yes very

291
00:16:10,810 --> 00:16:09,019
much from the absolute very Beginnings

292
00:16:13,970 --> 00:16:10,820
the the

293
00:16:15,889 --> 00:16:13,980
UFO topic and the intelligence Community

294
00:16:18,170 --> 00:16:15,899
is inseparable

295
00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:18,180
same as it ever was

296
00:16:27,730 --> 00:16:24,120
yeah yeah as a uh historian uh Jack

297
00:16:30,610 --> 00:16:27,740
um you know when we look at history it's

298
00:16:33,410 --> 00:16:30,620
inevitable that there are real

299
00:16:35,629 --> 00:16:33,420
conspiracies that occur in history uh

300
00:16:38,269 --> 00:16:35,639
Noam Chomsky regardless of you like his

301
00:16:40,150 --> 00:16:38,279
politics and fantastic historian on this

302
00:16:42,829 --> 00:16:40,160
subject he's demonstrated conclusively

303
00:16:45,249 --> 00:16:42,839
significant number of real conspiracies

304
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:45,259
in history and he also

305
00:16:52,850 --> 00:16:50,160
indicated that in order to visually

306
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:52,860
appear that a conspiracy is happening it

307
00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:54,240
can be that people are not actually

308
00:16:58,189 --> 00:16:56,100
conspiring but people in a similar

309
00:17:00,889 --> 00:16:58,199
socioeconomic position operating

310
00:17:03,949 --> 00:17:00,899
independently will appear to be in a

311
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:03,959
conspiracy and the outcomes will look

312
00:17:09,530 --> 00:17:06,240
identical to as if they actually were

313
00:17:10,970 --> 00:17:09,540
conspiring now within this subject it's

314
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:10,980
unquestionable that there have been

315
00:17:15,650 --> 00:17:13,199
proven a significant number of CIA

316
00:17:17,929 --> 00:17:15,660
conspiracies throughout the 20th century

317
00:17:19,730 --> 00:17:17,939
and I imagine into the 21st the trick I

318
00:17:22,250 --> 00:17:19,740
have met I mean certainly is to know

319
00:17:24,289 --> 00:17:22,260
which ones are still to be discovered

320
00:17:26,329 --> 00:17:24,299
and so as a historian would you be able

321
00:17:29,870 --> 00:17:26,339
to dig in a little bit to how you

322
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:29,880
distinguish between a conspiracy

323
00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:33,840
versus a conspiracy theory hmm

324
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:36,660
that's a really good question

325
00:17:40,750 --> 00:17:38,280
pardon me

326
00:17:43,010 --> 00:17:40,760
but I was admiring the question

327
00:17:43,909 --> 00:17:43,020
yes yes

328
00:17:47,450 --> 00:17:43,919
um

329
00:17:50,029 --> 00:17:47,460
well just for starters what what what

330
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:50,039
your statement and question make me

331
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:52,740
think of is

332
00:17:58,850 --> 00:17:55,440
um around the the Twitter verse right

333
00:18:01,370 --> 00:17:58,860
now there are Rumblings about the

334
00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:01,380
intelligence Community was

335
00:18:06,350 --> 00:18:04,140
um using Twitter and it had

336
00:18:11,570 --> 00:18:06,360
um sock puppet accounts and it had

337
00:18:14,330 --> 00:18:11,580
informed the uh certain members of the

338
00:18:17,390 --> 00:18:14,340
Twitter staff that it wanted protection

339
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,400
of these accounts and that that like

340
00:18:22,010 --> 00:18:19,679
that's some of the rumors I see I

341
00:18:24,669 --> 00:18:22,020
haven't dug into it

342
00:18:29,090 --> 00:18:24,679
and

343
00:18:32,330 --> 00:18:29,100
this was like common knowledge I mean

344
00:18:35,090 --> 00:18:32,340
for years I I mean like

345
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:35,100
um and the grades have been framed I

346
00:18:39,409 --> 00:18:37,200
quoted newspaper articles from

347
00:18:40,970 --> 00:18:39,419
mainstream journalists

348
00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:40,980
that

349
00:18:49,789 --> 00:18:42,840
um

350
00:18:54,549 --> 00:18:49,799
Facebook Warriors platoon

351
00:18:58,070 --> 00:18:54,559
um the Israeli defense uh

352
00:19:02,210 --> 00:18:58,080
offices and agencies

353
00:19:03,909 --> 00:19:02,220
um made no mistake about it like like I

354
00:19:08,570 --> 00:19:03,919
they they

355
00:19:10,909 --> 00:19:08,580
released information as if to show as if

356
00:19:13,490 --> 00:19:10,919
they were proud of it and to show we are

357
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:13,500
keeping up with the technology and the

358
00:19:19,789 --> 00:19:16,080
times and you know we've got our our

359
00:19:23,510 --> 00:19:19,799
citizens covered that they they claimed

360
00:19:26,930 --> 00:19:23,520
a massive activity on social media

361
00:19:29,630 --> 00:19:26,940
and so now when I see this I can

362
00:19:31,909 --> 00:19:29,640
appreciate journalists that you know

363
00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:31,919
have some confirmation about which

364
00:19:39,490 --> 00:19:36,120
account and and here's an email but I I

365
00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:39,500
do kind of resent and wonder about

366
00:19:44,590 --> 00:19:42,660
conspiracy theories compared to actual

367
00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:44,600
conspiracies

368
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:49,440
uh who is it advantageous to to dig this

369
00:19:54,830 --> 00:19:51,840
back up and and pull all this out and

370
00:19:58,669 --> 00:19:54,840
talk about it when those of us that were

371
00:20:00,789 --> 00:19:58,679
even paying mild attention have have

372
00:20:04,090 --> 00:20:00,799
known that

373
00:20:08,570 --> 00:20:04,100
besides it being relatively common sense

374
00:20:11,590 --> 00:20:08,580
that uh they told us they they had

375
00:20:15,169 --> 00:20:11,600
accounts on social media I mean the the

376
00:20:19,390 --> 00:20:15,179
cia's first tweet was we can either

377
00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:19,400
confirm nor deny this is our first tweet

378
00:20:24,529 --> 00:20:22,260
I mean they're like we're trolling us

379
00:20:27,350 --> 00:20:24,539
that we've been trolling you you

380
00:20:30,830 --> 00:20:27,360
certainly are yeah yeah and

381
00:20:32,930 --> 00:20:30,840
so that's what what the first thing that

382
00:20:37,789 --> 00:20:32,940
comes to mind to me with what you're

383
00:20:40,669 --> 00:20:37,799
talking about but um yes uh I have joked

384
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:40,679
about I'm a card-carrying conspiracy

385
00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:44,400
theorist I just want some evidence for

386
00:20:49,909 --> 00:20:47,460
the conspiracy you know there has to be

387
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:49,919
more than uh

388
00:20:57,770 --> 00:20:55,760
than than rumors and accusations and uh

389
00:21:01,310 --> 00:20:57,780
they're they're

390
00:21:05,510 --> 00:21:01,320
it's easy to think dots connect that

391
00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:05,520
don't indeed uh and coincidences do

392
00:21:15,169 --> 00:21:08,520
happen strange things do happen

393
00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:15,179
uh you you it challenges a a writer a a

394
00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:20,640
video uh content creator a a blogger it

395
00:21:29,810 --> 00:21:25,140
challenges us to make sure we've got the

396
00:21:32,990 --> 00:21:29,820
validation for for circumstances and for

397
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:33,000
me one of the best ways to to come at

398
00:21:39,710 --> 00:21:36,480
that is uh

399
00:21:42,130 --> 00:21:39,720
seek authentic documents see seek

400
00:21:45,649 --> 00:21:42,140
documents from intelligence agencies

401
00:21:49,130 --> 00:21:45,659
government agencies use the the Freedom

402
00:21:52,190 --> 00:21:49,140
of Information Act use local records

403
00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:52,200
acts like in in Utah there's the grandma

404
00:21:59,570 --> 00:21:56,340
they call it that you can submit uh for

405
00:22:01,970 --> 00:21:59,580
uh Records at

406
00:22:03,230 --> 00:22:01,980
um County Clerk offices and things like

407
00:22:05,870 --> 00:22:03,240
that

408
00:22:08,570 --> 00:22:05,880
um get what you can then go to the

409
00:22:10,610 --> 00:22:08,580
people it's about and ask them and just

410
00:22:13,130 --> 00:22:10,620
ask them on the record what's their

411
00:22:16,669 --> 00:22:13,140
story with this how do they defend it

412
00:22:20,270 --> 00:22:16,679
what's their side try to do it you know

413
00:22:22,810 --> 00:22:20,280
in a non-accusatory manner just you know

414
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,820
ask them you know what what's the deal

415
00:22:29,870 --> 00:22:24,960
and then

416
00:22:32,529 --> 00:22:29,880
if possible find expert opinion on the

417
00:22:36,230 --> 00:22:32,539
circumstances like if it's an ethical

418
00:22:37,750 --> 00:22:36,240
breach if it's claiming to be conducting

419
00:22:40,610 --> 00:22:37,760
scientific

420
00:22:43,610 --> 00:22:40,620
investigation but you have doubts about

421
00:22:47,210 --> 00:22:43,620
that ask a scientist you know as

422
00:22:50,570 --> 00:22:47,220
qualified experts to weigh in on the

423
00:22:53,529 --> 00:22:50,580
circumstances and in that way when we're

424
00:22:56,930 --> 00:22:53,539
writing about it maybe do minimal

425
00:22:59,630 --> 00:22:56,940
editorializing and and I recognize

426
00:23:02,090 --> 00:22:59,640
whether we're doing a piece on reporting

427
00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:02,100
or whether we're doing an essay that's

428
00:23:08,149 --> 00:23:05,460
an editorial those are some things I say

429
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:08,159
could be helpful what about you guys how

430
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:09,200
do y'all

431
00:23:19,909 --> 00:23:17,570
well I guess I can answer first since I

432
00:23:23,270 --> 00:23:19,919
asked the question uh

433
00:23:24,669 --> 00:23:23,280
to me the most basic is uh along the

434
00:23:26,930 --> 00:23:24,679
lines of what you described

435
00:23:29,149 --> 00:23:26,940
verifiability and the degree of

436
00:23:31,430 --> 00:23:29,159
verifiability uh the quality of the

437
00:23:34,430 --> 00:23:31,440
evidence uh whether the evidence

438
00:23:36,110 --> 00:23:34,440
originates in academic sources that are

439
00:23:38,570 --> 00:23:36,120
well cited or not

440
00:23:40,850 --> 00:23:38,580
um the foundation to me is is if it's

441
00:23:43,610 --> 00:23:40,860
been verified or not

442
00:23:46,430 --> 00:23:43,620
right reserve your judgment until you

443
00:23:47,570 --> 00:23:46,440
can conclusively make a judgment and I

444
00:23:49,730 --> 00:23:47,580
guess the question of verification

445
00:23:51,289 --> 00:23:49,740
becomes very interesting

446
00:23:53,029 --> 00:23:51,299
um you know and maybe there's a little

447
00:23:55,010 --> 00:23:53,039
bit of I know when I see it but then

448
00:23:58,010 --> 00:23:55,020
there are also external standards that

449
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:58,020
we can choose to consciously apply to

450
00:24:02,810 --> 00:24:00,960
our reasoning like the scientific method

451
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:02,820
and things like that which arguably

452
00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:06,000
produce a net advantage to us when we're

453
00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:08,580
trying to accurately predict the nature

454
00:24:12,350 --> 00:24:10,260
of reality

455
00:24:15,529 --> 00:24:12,360
Nick what about you what's your kind of

456
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:15,539
General take on that I mean

457
00:24:20,570 --> 00:24:18,000
potentially what I said I

458
00:24:23,029 --> 00:24:20,580
I try to I try to refrain conclusive

459
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:23,039
judgment on things until we have a

460
00:24:26,210 --> 00:24:24,480
verifiable

461
00:24:28,250 --> 00:24:26,220
conclusive evidence you know what I mean

462
00:24:30,649 --> 00:24:28,260
so like I say a lot on these things I'm

463
00:24:33,649 --> 00:24:30,659
I'm open and I'll listen to conspiracy

464
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:33,659
theory of course but I never feel

465
00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:35,640
comfortable it's taking my belief in it

466
00:24:39,529 --> 00:24:36,960
until

467
00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:39,539
we can get something I know um

468
00:24:42,230 --> 00:24:40,799
you know there's there's always the

469
00:24:43,850 --> 00:24:42,240
appeal to Authority and stuff like that

470
00:24:46,610 --> 00:24:43,860
but there are there are

471
00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:46,620
Authority is a large word so you know

472
00:24:51,710 --> 00:24:49,740
experts in fields obviously take

473
00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:51,720
um come with I'm losing my train of

474
00:24:55,549 --> 00:24:54,000
thought here yeah I I reserved my

475
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:55,559
judgment until uh there's enough

476
00:24:58,909 --> 00:24:56,880
evidence there to make a conclusive

477
00:25:00,409 --> 00:24:58,919
stance

478
00:25:03,169 --> 00:25:00,419
Leah

479
00:25:05,630 --> 00:25:03,179
yes I'm back too sorry about that my uh

480
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:05,640
yeah my computer was lagging um you know

481
00:25:09,230 --> 00:25:07,200
this is a great question one of the

482
00:25:11,390 --> 00:25:09,240
things that I regularly ask people and

483
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:11,400
ask myself is what makes them trust a

484
00:25:18,110 --> 00:25:14,000
source and then also how do they

485
00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:18,120
evaluate expertise in areas with which

486
00:25:23,390 --> 00:25:20,220
they have no familiarity basically

487
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:23,400
what's this sort of meta heuristic of

488
00:25:27,529 --> 00:25:25,919
discerning whether or not someone is

489
00:25:30,049 --> 00:25:27,539
knowledgeable and trustworthy and

490
00:25:31,730 --> 00:25:30,059
reliable in fields of study or on

491
00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:31,740
subjects that you may personally not

492
00:25:36,289 --> 00:25:34,200
have any familiarity

493
00:25:39,710 --> 00:25:36,299
um I'm I'm certainly

494
00:25:41,390 --> 00:25:39,720
um also a bit anti-authoritarian

495
00:25:43,730 --> 00:25:41,400
um but this is one of those instances

496
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:43,740
where I think it's helpful to rely on

497
00:25:49,730 --> 00:25:46,080
some degree of credentialism to look at

498
00:25:53,630 --> 00:25:49,740
the institutions and colleagues or peers

499
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:53,640
of an individual or organization that

500
00:25:59,090 --> 00:25:56,480
may speak to the quality and

501
00:26:00,830 --> 00:25:59,100
trustworthiness of an individual in an

502
00:26:02,090 --> 00:26:00,840
organization

503
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:02,100
um

504
00:26:06,769 --> 00:26:05,220
I'm also extreme particularly in this

505
00:26:11,210 --> 00:26:06,779
subject

506
00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:11,220
would say that I

507
00:26:16,669 --> 00:26:14,820
am categorically averse to anyone who

508
00:26:20,090 --> 00:26:16,679
proclaims having any definitive

509
00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:20,100
meaningful conclusions if they're not

510
00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:21,900
like I'm a big believer in strong

511
00:26:26,269 --> 00:26:24,240
opinions loosely held so if they're not

512
00:26:29,470 --> 00:26:26,279
if there's not a demonstrated track

513
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:29,480
record of regularly revisiting

514
00:26:35,330 --> 00:26:33,600
reevaluating and refactoring Views and

515
00:26:37,970 --> 00:26:35,340
opinions then I'm somewhat less

516
00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:37,980
skeptical or I'm somewhat less

517
00:26:42,250 --> 00:26:40,500
um I don't trust them as much let me put

518
00:26:44,090 --> 00:26:42,260
it that way if there's not this sort of

519
00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:44,100
self-interrogation and accountability

520
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:46,140
that is exhibited in some meaningful

521
00:26:56,810 --> 00:26:52,730
there is a book by The Talented Sharon

522
00:27:00,190 --> 00:26:56,820
Weinberger called imaginary weapons

523
00:27:04,450 --> 00:27:00,200
and it was about her

524
00:27:06,830 --> 00:27:04,460
uh exploration of

525
00:27:12,529 --> 00:27:06,840
darpa-funded work

526
00:27:15,710 --> 00:27:12,539
on a half name bomb that was such a

527
00:27:18,169 --> 00:27:15,720
limited area of expertise

528
00:27:22,029 --> 00:27:18,179
that

529
00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:22,039
the peer review was very challenging

530
00:27:29,630 --> 00:27:26,760
and uh there there were people that were

531
00:27:32,210 --> 00:27:29,640
telling her as she was studying the

532
00:27:33,769 --> 00:27:32,220
these grants that were being funded and

533
00:27:37,669 --> 00:27:33,779
refunded

534
00:27:41,210 --> 00:27:37,679
that were telling her that their

535
00:27:44,450 --> 00:27:41,220
opinions was the scientists and Grant

536
00:27:48,110 --> 00:27:44,460
Riders were full-on charlatans

537
00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:48,120
and there were people of of course

538
00:27:53,990 --> 00:27:50,760
involved in the programs that were

539
00:27:57,470 --> 00:27:54,000
completely defending their work and

540
00:28:00,169 --> 00:27:57,480
saying if other people can't duplicate

541
00:28:03,769 --> 00:28:00,179
our experiments and get the same results

542
00:28:07,870 --> 00:28:03,779
it's because they're incompetent and

543
00:28:12,289 --> 00:28:07,880
they don't know how and she she started

544
00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:12,299
being like as she portrayed the readers

545
00:28:16,730 --> 00:28:14,400
um I don't know about that you ought to

546
00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:16,740
be you know if it's so complicated you

547
00:28:22,909 --> 00:28:19,679
can't explain what you're doing you know

548
00:28:25,490 --> 00:28:22,919
maybe it's not not somebody else's fault

549
00:28:29,090 --> 00:28:25,500
and the bottom line

550
00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:29,100
um they eventually uh DARPA stopped

551
00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:31,260
funding the program and never did get

552
00:28:37,850 --> 00:28:34,620
their happy environment but

553
00:28:40,730 --> 00:28:37,860
um what Leah says there reminds me of

554
00:28:42,769 --> 00:28:40,740
that such a limited field of expertise

555
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:42,779
that

556
00:28:51,909 --> 00:28:48,000
weinberger's working number of times

557
00:28:56,690 --> 00:28:51,919
during all the atip and ASAP arguments

558
00:29:00,110 --> 00:28:56,700
that uh because very much people like

559
00:29:03,529 --> 00:29:00,120
putoff and Eric Davis and

560
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:03,539
um Kelleher and and that band present

561
00:29:10,010 --> 00:29:07,440
themselves as I'm the guy to see about

562
00:29:13,789 --> 00:29:10,020
things going bump in the night and

563
00:29:17,750 --> 00:29:13,799
scientific investigation get me on your

564
00:29:18,850 --> 00:29:17,760
your uh military funded you know ghost

565
00:29:22,490 --> 00:29:18,860
project

566
00:29:26,029 --> 00:29:22,500
and uh some of the people in fact in

567
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:26,039
weinberger's book do overlap with the

568
00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:28,559
UFO Community some of the people that

569
00:29:35,570 --> 00:29:31,980
she was in contact with trying to figure

570
00:29:37,610 --> 00:29:35,580
out you know these guys getting millions

571
00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:37,620
of dollars for a bomb they weren't

572
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:40,140
producing yeah

573
00:29:48,110 --> 00:29:45,120
one of the Dynamics that I find most

574
00:29:50,810 --> 00:29:48,120
puzzling in this community is that there

575
00:29:53,570 --> 00:29:50,820
is this tension between recognizing and

576
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:53,580
acknowledging to some degree government

577
00:29:58,669 --> 00:29:56,220
involvement in this space will

578
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:58,679
simultaneously

579
00:30:02,210 --> 00:29:59,760
um

580
00:30:04,610 --> 00:30:02,220
just uncritically trusting government

581
00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:04,620
voices

582
00:30:07,669 --> 00:30:05,760
um

583
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:07,679
and this is something I struggle with

584
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:10,080
because

585
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,200
um I understand I guess I I feel I I

586
00:30:17,930 --> 00:30:14,880
understand empathetically the

587
00:30:21,230 --> 00:30:17,940
inclination to do so

588
00:30:24,169 --> 00:30:21,240
um but I find this unwillingness to

589
00:30:27,230 --> 00:30:24,179
apply critical reasoning to the subject

590
00:30:27,889 --> 00:30:27,240
deeply kind of troubling

591
00:30:30,769 --> 00:30:27,899
um

592
00:30:32,630 --> 00:30:30,779
and also an unwillingness to have hard

593
00:30:35,149 --> 00:30:32,640
conversations whether with government

594
00:30:37,610 --> 00:30:35,159
officials or with any other researcher

595
00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:37,620
and I feel like that unwillingness or

596
00:30:41,930 --> 00:30:39,960
that fear propagates through the

597
00:30:44,210 --> 00:30:41,940
community and fundamentally does a

598
00:30:47,029 --> 00:30:44,220
complete disservice to it regardless of

599
00:30:51,070 --> 00:30:47,039
where in the community an individual or

600
00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:54,710
yeah yeah absolutely I think that you

601
00:31:00,830 --> 00:30:58,080
made a really good point about

602
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:00,840
um don't be a fence sitter you know at

603
00:31:04,909 --> 00:31:03,600
some point you need to

604
00:31:08,269 --> 00:31:04,919
um

605
00:31:11,029 --> 00:31:08,279
land on one side or the other of an

606
00:31:14,450 --> 00:31:11,039
issue or at least how to resolve an

607
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:14,460
issue when you spoke with Erica Luke's a

608
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:16,559
while back I I thought you made a really

609
00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:21,360
good point about that and uh along those

610
00:31:23,810 --> 00:31:22,860
lines

611
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:23,820
um

612
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:26,960
a while back a few years ago

613
00:31:32,830 --> 00:31:30,899
some material came out about about

614
00:31:36,730 --> 00:31:32,840
Jacques valet

615
00:31:41,389 --> 00:31:36,740
and some supposedly uh

616
00:31:45,230 --> 00:31:41,399
uh information he had about

617
00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:45,240
um CIA conducting

618
00:31:52,730 --> 00:31:50,340
um simulated UFO abductions and uh there

619
00:31:55,490 --> 00:31:52,740
there's a whole story around what this

620
00:31:59,690 --> 00:31:55,500
material and the story probably was but

621
00:32:03,409 --> 00:31:59,700
for the point of this discussion I

622
00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:03,419
reached out to Dr valet and uh he did

623
00:32:08,350 --> 00:32:06,720
not want to produce the material did not

624
00:32:11,630 --> 00:32:08,360
want to

625
00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:11,640
verify it offer a means to verify it

626
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:14,340
just wanting to tell me it's in his

627
00:32:18,889 --> 00:32:16,620
notes and they'll be available 10 years

628
00:32:20,149 --> 00:32:18,899
after his death or at some point or

629
00:32:24,409 --> 00:32:20,159
whatever

630
00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:24,419
and today I was reading an article

631
00:32:28,010 --> 00:32:25,020
um

632
00:32:30,070 --> 00:32:28,020
that Erica passed along to me and was

633
00:32:34,610 --> 00:32:30,080
asking you know what I thought about it

634
00:32:36,889 --> 00:32:34,620
and this was uh from the early 1990s and

635
00:32:40,190 --> 00:32:36,899
one of the people cited in the article

636
00:32:44,450 --> 00:32:40,200
is Dr Valley again and

637
00:32:46,909 --> 00:32:44,460
um in this instance it was about a uh

638
00:32:51,649 --> 00:32:46,919
what's only referred to in the article

639
00:32:55,010 --> 00:32:51,659
as an otherwise unnamed Colonel that uh

640
00:33:00,590 --> 00:32:55,020
showed some fascist Tendencies and some

641
00:33:03,049 --> 00:33:00,600
Nazi apparent Nazi sympathies and valet

642
00:33:07,250 --> 00:33:03,059
does not name this person in that

643
00:33:12,350 --> 00:33:07,260
article and uh

644
00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:12,360
I I begin to have some issues with how

645
00:33:16,009 --> 00:33:14,940
that that becomes

646
00:33:17,649 --> 00:33:16,019
um

647
00:33:22,450 --> 00:33:17,659
some some

648
00:33:25,310 --> 00:33:22,460
convoluted form of peacekeeping or not

649
00:33:28,130 --> 00:33:25,320
backbiting or

650
00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:28,140
um why are we talking about it at all if

651
00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:30,240
we're not going to talk about who it was

652
00:33:35,750 --> 00:33:33,240
and verifying it and and

653
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:35,760
so I'm just supposed to believe you

654
00:33:41,810 --> 00:33:38,880
because your name's valet I I mean

655
00:33:44,750 --> 00:33:41,820
oh that would be convenient I I'm I'm

656
00:33:47,470 --> 00:33:44,760
living through my own mini UFO Twitter

657
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:47,480
drama right now about providing receipts

658
00:33:53,570 --> 00:33:50,880
you know sounded really familiar yes

659
00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:53,580
yeah like being asked to present

660
00:33:58,009 --> 00:33:56,220
receipts for any claims I'm making I

661
00:34:00,409 --> 00:33:58,019
provide receipts and then that makes

662
00:34:01,789 --> 00:34:00,419
people very upset right that there's

663
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,799
this kind of

664
00:34:06,110 --> 00:34:03,120
um

665
00:34:08,089 --> 00:34:06,120
it's like a deep perversion of that John

666
00:34:10,369 --> 00:34:08,099
Lennon song lyric a dream we dream

667
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:10,379
together is reality we're like there's

668
00:34:15,409 --> 00:34:13,440
this Collective dream and any any even

669
00:34:17,930 --> 00:34:15,419
good-natured

670
00:34:20,089 --> 00:34:17,940
um attempt to ask questions about that

671
00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:20,099
dream is met with just tremendously

672
00:34:25,369 --> 00:34:22,200
emotional pushback and like total

673
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:25,379
dismissal and usually like

674
00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:26,159
um

675
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:29,700
I I I think you know just speaking

676
00:34:33,409 --> 00:34:31,560
personally like I'm so consistently

677
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:33,419
troubled by the unwillingness of people

678
00:34:38,629 --> 00:34:36,240
to have hard conversations and Jack one

679
00:34:40,190 --> 00:34:38,639
of the things I said to Erica in our in

680
00:34:42,109 --> 00:34:40,200
our discussion a few weeks back was

681
00:34:45,169 --> 00:34:42,119
basically that like

682
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:45,179
Good Vibes only become like becomes like

683
00:34:50,270 --> 00:34:48,179
lubricant for Bad actors

684
00:34:52,550 --> 00:34:50,280
um and like I'm definitely not the

685
00:34:55,369 --> 00:34:52,560
freaking UFO police like I have a very

686
00:34:56,690 --> 00:34:55,379
healthy disrespect for Authority but I

687
00:34:58,130 --> 00:34:56,700
think it's also really important as

688
00:35:00,530 --> 00:34:58,140
people just involved in this community

689
00:35:02,030 --> 00:35:00,540
to have standards of Integrity that we

690
00:35:03,890 --> 00:35:02,040
hold ourselves to and we hold other

691
00:35:06,290 --> 00:35:03,900
people too there's very few things we

692
00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:06,300
can judge others on except for who they

693
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:08,220
associate with and the views that they

694
00:35:12,349 --> 00:35:10,079
publicly declare

695
00:35:14,930 --> 00:35:12,359
um and I think like being very selective

696
00:35:16,430 --> 00:35:14,940
about those things is part of what keeps

697
00:35:20,829 --> 00:35:16,440
a community healthy even if it's

698
00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:23,810
that's certainly a reasonable point of

699
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:26,760
view to say the least yeah

700
00:35:32,630 --> 00:35:30,300
uh well Jack uh I might try to Pivot

701
00:35:34,490 --> 00:35:32,640
into one of Louise's questions right now

702
00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:34,500
actually because we've sort of been

703
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:37,740
talking a little bit about this apparent

704
00:35:44,810 --> 00:35:41,280
merger between the UFO

705
00:35:47,630 --> 00:35:44,820
private investigation groups and the

706
00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:47,640
intelligence community and when you look

707
00:35:53,390 --> 00:35:50,400
back at the history in the 60s and the

708
00:35:55,310 --> 00:35:53,400
50s with nightcap the uh organization

709
00:35:58,370 --> 00:35:55,320
that was founded by Kehoe and others

710
00:36:00,349 --> 00:35:58,380
right there was the first CIA director

711
00:36:02,810 --> 00:36:00,359
was on the board of directors for like

712
00:36:06,170 --> 00:36:02,820
eight years or something right and

713
00:36:08,270 --> 00:36:06,180
correct the rear Admiral in the Navy who

714
00:36:10,190 --> 00:36:08,280
was responsible for the missile testing

715
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:10,200
program was on the board of directors

716
00:36:14,450 --> 00:36:12,240
and we know that there were tons of you

717
00:36:15,950 --> 00:36:14,460
know UFO alleged cases at White Sands

718
00:36:17,270 --> 00:36:15,960
with the missile testing because that

719
00:36:19,910 --> 00:36:17,280
was the first time they'd implemented

720
00:36:21,530 --> 00:36:19,920
radar tracking high resolution cameras

721
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:21,540
and there were allegedly things being

722
00:36:26,569 --> 00:36:24,480
seen so it's an interesting thing now

723
00:36:28,910 --> 00:36:26,579
you know it's up for debates still

724
00:36:31,069 --> 00:36:28,920
whether there's actually a genuine

725
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:31,079
physical phenomenon occurring uh and

726
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,400
this is what I want to kind of lead into

727
00:36:36,170 --> 00:36:34,079
here

728
00:36:38,510 --> 00:36:36,180
um now Luis is asked uh asking anyone

729
00:36:39,730 --> 00:36:38,520
who's written in questions he says do

730
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:39,740
you think that the apparent

731
00:36:44,329 --> 00:36:42,000
preponderance of psychological warfare

732
00:36:46,670 --> 00:36:44,339
encounter intelligence people in nycap

733
00:36:49,190 --> 00:36:46,680
during the 50s and 60s could have been

734
00:36:52,370 --> 00:36:49,200
due to a psychological predisposition

735
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,380
among these people to simply be drawn to

736
00:36:56,210 --> 00:36:54,480
Intrigue and mystery rather than

737
00:37:01,329 --> 00:36:56,220
something that was part of an operation

738
00:37:11,990 --> 00:37:06,609
I cannot discount that no

739
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:12,000
I tend to think that whatever the

740
00:37:16,250 --> 00:37:14,760
reasons were whatever the objectives

741
00:37:28,250 --> 00:37:16,260
were

742
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:28,260
involved with nycap I think others may

743
00:37:36,829 --> 00:37:32,640
have come along for various reasons

744
00:37:37,430 --> 00:37:36,839
uh ranging from interest to

745
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:37,440
um

746
00:37:43,490 --> 00:37:41,040
the the their buddies were doing it that

747
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:43,500
there's a a certain

748
00:37:50,390 --> 00:37:48,240
um tribalism among CIA officers that

749
00:37:52,430 --> 00:37:50,400
they'll support one another

750
00:37:57,530 --> 00:37:52,440
uh

751
00:38:01,250 --> 00:37:57,540
but at the core I think there there were

752
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:01,260
some officers that were conducting some

753
00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:05,359
type of information retrieval

754
00:38:11,870 --> 00:38:07,020
or

755
00:38:15,650 --> 00:38:11,880
um a number of things I I think uh

756
00:38:18,589 --> 00:38:15,660
pretty much all of the explanations we

757
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:18,599
could just kind of hypothetically come

758
00:38:25,730 --> 00:38:22,320
up with I think were on the table for

759
00:38:29,150 --> 00:38:25,740
use at different times over the years

760
00:38:31,609 --> 00:38:29,160
as well as probably a few that we

761
00:38:34,910 --> 00:38:31,619
wouldn't think of with without more

762
00:38:37,310 --> 00:38:34,920
information and one of the main reasons

763
00:38:41,450 --> 00:38:37,320
I think of that way

764
00:38:45,170 --> 00:38:41,460
is I I generally tell this in a couple

765
00:38:47,210 --> 00:38:45,180
different ways and one way for context

766
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:47,220
is

767
00:38:55,790 --> 00:38:50,160
um if you so much has worked for the

768
00:39:00,290 --> 00:38:55,800
school board or you were uh you you had

769
00:39:02,210 --> 00:39:00,300
a a position of responsibility in a high

770
00:39:04,670 --> 00:39:02,220
profile

771
00:39:08,349 --> 00:39:04,680
um local industry

772
00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:08,359
um you would think twice about

773
00:39:14,750 --> 00:39:11,940
uh going and giving statements to the

774
00:39:17,510 --> 00:39:14,760
newspaper about UFOs

775
00:39:20,750 --> 00:39:17,520
so that should kind of give us some

776
00:39:25,310 --> 00:39:20,760
context of how much more consideration

777
00:39:27,829 --> 00:39:25,320
you'd give it if uh you were a former

778
00:39:32,210 --> 00:39:27,839
director of the CIA

779
00:39:34,569 --> 00:39:32,220
or if you were in the case of Colonel

780
00:39:39,130 --> 00:39:34,579
Joseph Bryan

781
00:39:40,750 --> 00:39:39,140
you had ran a psychological

782
00:39:45,890 --> 00:39:40,760
operation

783
00:39:48,530 --> 00:39:45,900
and a psychological uh Warfare committee

784
00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:48,540
and

785
00:39:53,569 --> 00:39:50,220
um

786
00:39:55,130 --> 00:39:53,579
and I'm sorry I got distracted there my

787
00:39:57,170 --> 00:39:55,140
uh

788
00:40:03,430 --> 00:39:57,180
um

789
00:40:07,790 --> 00:40:03,440
Colonel Brian he operated a

790
00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:07,800
psychological warfare team for the CIA

791
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:10,800
and then ended up on the board of

792
00:40:16,370 --> 00:40:13,140
directors with

793
00:40:19,310 --> 00:40:16,380
um the former DCI Hill encoder and and

794
00:40:23,089 --> 00:40:19,320
others there at nightcap

795
00:40:27,950 --> 00:40:23,099
I just don't think you do that you don't

796
00:40:30,710 --> 00:40:27,960
Moonlight and do that recreationally and

797
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:30,720
um besides it just being you know

798
00:40:35,690 --> 00:40:34,800
something you could deduce and surmise

799
00:40:39,109 --> 00:40:35,700
um

800
00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:39,119
I some of the material I came I

801
00:40:45,290 --> 00:40:42,720
discovered in uh researching and putting

802
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:45,300
together the book Wayward signs about

803
00:40:54,349 --> 00:40:49,920
nycap and the IC included

804
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:54,359
um in the FBI there was a clerk at the

805
00:40:59,450 --> 00:40:56,640
New Orleans field office that thought

806
00:41:04,130 --> 00:40:59,460
nycat was cool and wanted to go to

807
00:41:09,650 --> 00:41:04,140
meetings and join and this clerk knew to

808
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:09,660
ask and uh apparently a special agent at

809
00:41:16,210 --> 00:41:12,480
the New Orleans office even felt it was

810
00:41:20,270 --> 00:41:16,220
over his pay grade and asked Washington

811
00:41:24,410 --> 00:41:20,280
and it went all the way to Hoover who

812
00:41:28,190 --> 00:41:24,420
made it clear in no uncertain terms that

813
00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:28,200
their public stance on nycap and any

814
00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:32,400
organization was that um we we uh

815
00:41:37,970 --> 00:41:35,760
neither endorsed nor oppose our job in

816
00:41:39,950 --> 00:41:37,980
the Department of Justice is to conduct

817
00:41:43,970 --> 00:41:39,960
investigations

818
00:41:46,849 --> 00:41:43,980
but make no mistake we do not want to be

819
00:41:50,930 --> 00:41:46,859
involved with this organization and make

820
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:50,940
it inadvertently appear that that we

821
00:42:00,829 --> 00:41:55,920
endorse or are in League with nycat

822
00:42:05,450 --> 00:42:00,839
so for that to be the uh stance they

823
00:42:06,290 --> 00:42:05,460
take with a clerk at a field office

824
00:42:11,510 --> 00:42:06,300
um

825
00:42:14,750 --> 00:42:11,520
I I think says a lot about that uh a guy

826
00:42:18,050 --> 00:42:14,760
that ran a psychological warfare unit

827
00:42:20,390 --> 00:42:18,060
for the CIA would just shrug and say

828
00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:20,400
that sounds kind of fun I'll help out

829
00:42:25,069 --> 00:42:22,200
you know

830
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:25,079
um I got time between my trips to Europe

831
00:42:31,130 --> 00:42:28,680
can I investigate a case you know yeah

832
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:31,140
it's kind of an insult to intelligence

833
00:42:34,730 --> 00:42:32,240
again

834
00:42:39,290 --> 00:42:34,740
well that's an interesting point because

835
00:42:41,630 --> 00:42:39,300
as we know Luis Elizondo says

836
00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:41,640
effectively something to that something

837
00:42:46,250 --> 00:42:43,680
to that effect really with uh his

838
00:42:49,329 --> 00:42:46,260
narrative surrounding has continued on

839
00:42:52,370 --> 00:42:49,339
the side of off the books investigations

840
00:42:54,290 --> 00:42:52,380
and we now have we have well for some

841
00:42:56,390 --> 00:42:54,300
time now Jim some of them this uh

842
00:42:58,490 --> 00:42:56,400
questionable character who nobody seems

843
00:43:00,530 --> 00:42:58,500
to know who he is is the only public

844
00:43:01,849 --> 00:43:00,540
information on LinkedIn that he had

845
00:43:03,530 --> 00:43:01,859
posted suggested he worked for the

846
00:43:05,809 --> 00:43:03,540
government accountability office but

847
00:43:08,510 --> 00:43:05,819
then interview with George Knapp he is

848
00:43:09,950 --> 00:43:08,520
introduced as a former uh associate

849
00:43:13,130 --> 00:43:09,960
assistant director to

850
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:13,140
counterintelligence at the CIA uh and

851
00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:14,880
then he tells an outrageous story on

852
00:43:19,430 --> 00:43:16,260
theories of everything with Kurt where

853
00:43:21,890 --> 00:43:19,440
he says oh I heard about uh you know

854
00:43:23,150 --> 00:43:21,900
this uh Guy Tom Delong actually was it

855
00:43:24,829 --> 00:43:23,160
was the interview with Tom long because

856
00:43:27,050 --> 00:43:24,839
he was involved with the starting of two

857
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:27,060
the Stars right and then he's saying uh

858
00:43:32,569 --> 00:43:29,760
yeah so uh me and a bunch of the uh ex

859
00:43:35,270 --> 00:43:32,579
CIA guys we got together and we you know

860
00:43:37,130 --> 00:43:35,280
periodically meet and we talk about uh

861
00:43:39,470 --> 00:43:37,140
are there people getting information

862
00:43:40,609 --> 00:43:39,480
from inside the agency and we got

863
00:43:41,870 --> 00:43:40,619
together we're like is Tom getting

864
00:43:43,370 --> 00:43:41,880
information from inside the agency

865
00:43:45,890 --> 00:43:43,380
because a lot of the stuff he's saying

866
00:43:47,990 --> 00:43:45,900
sounds like accurate so I reached out to

867
00:43:49,849 --> 00:43:48,000
him and I uh you know ascertain no this

868
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,859
guy's for a legit it's all legit sources

869
00:43:54,050 --> 00:43:51,359
and stuff and I decided to try to help

870
00:43:56,510 --> 00:43:54,060
him out with what he's doing and

871
00:43:58,609 --> 00:43:56,520
then like what a bro just help him out

872
00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:58,619
it's a stunning it's a stunning

873
00:44:01,790 --> 00:44:00,720
admission and I have it saved exactly

874
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:01,800
where it is because I couldn't believe

875
00:44:05,030 --> 00:44:03,599
what I was hearing made no sense to me

876
00:44:06,890 --> 00:44:05,040
that he was saying this out loud he's

877
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:06,900
saying a group of CIA people getting

878
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:09,060
together to conspire to try to shut down

879
00:44:13,069 --> 00:44:10,800
leaks from inside the government he's

880
00:44:15,170 --> 00:44:13,079
just saying this out loud whatever and

881
00:44:16,970 --> 00:44:15,180
that's no there's no verification that

882
00:44:17,809 --> 00:44:16,980
he even worked for the CIA as far as I

883
00:44:19,370 --> 00:44:17,819
know

884
00:44:21,290 --> 00:44:19,380
um what

885
00:44:23,569 --> 00:44:21,300
yeah I believe as far as I can recall

886
00:44:25,250 --> 00:44:23,579
Jack you actually are the one who has

887
00:44:27,290 --> 00:44:25,260
been uh appealed to many times because

888
00:44:29,809 --> 00:44:27,300
you are the one who actually initially

889
00:44:31,250 --> 00:44:29,819
FOID trying to see if he worked for the

890
00:44:32,690 --> 00:44:31,260
CIA at any point

891
00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:32,700
um so I'm just wondering as just a quick

892
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:33,780
follow-up and then we can move on did

893
00:44:37,309 --> 00:44:35,280
you ever get anything back from that yet

894
00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:37,319
or is that in process and what are your

895
00:44:43,069 --> 00:44:39,000
general thoughts about semison just

896
00:44:50,210 --> 00:44:47,270
General thoughts about Jim Simi then are

897
00:44:51,589 --> 00:44:50,220
the same as I would say about anyone

898
00:44:55,210 --> 00:44:51,599
else

899
00:44:58,370 --> 00:44:55,220
um as far as cool story bro

900
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:58,380
yeah that's that's very Millennial of

901
00:45:01,730 --> 00:45:00,079
you Jack

902
00:45:06,620 --> 00:45:01,740
yeah

903
00:45:07,130 --> 00:45:06,630
um I I mean you know ID card uh you know

904
00:45:07,870 --> 00:45:07,140
[Music]

905
00:45:10,970 --> 00:45:07,880
um

906
00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:10,980
accommodation and anything

907
00:45:18,109 --> 00:45:14,760
um point of contact for you know a lot

908
00:45:20,990 --> 00:45:18,119
like if you go to get a a home loan who

909
00:45:25,150 --> 00:45:21,000
do you tell the bank to call

910
00:45:28,130 --> 00:45:25,160
um you know the CIA has

911
00:45:30,530 --> 00:45:28,140
contingencies for this it's not like

912
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:30,540
they're undercover people don't you know

913
00:45:37,730 --> 00:45:33,119
need health insurance and things like

914
00:45:42,410 --> 00:45:37,740
that and the uh the office of public

915
00:45:46,430 --> 00:45:42,420
affairs did not respond and so my next

916
00:45:50,210 --> 00:45:46,440
uh effort was and and semivan I

917
00:45:52,670 --> 00:45:50,220
specifically asked and he he said no I I

918
00:45:54,349 --> 00:45:52,680
don't have anything but

919
00:45:58,250 --> 00:45:54,359
and

920
00:46:02,329 --> 00:45:58,260
um so yeah really a big interesting part

921
00:46:05,210 --> 00:46:02,339
about that too is what it says about

922
00:46:08,329 --> 00:46:05,220
everybody just says you were with the

923
00:46:11,450 --> 00:46:08,339
CIA because you said so okay you know

924
00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:11,460
put it in the newspaper I guess

925
00:46:16,010 --> 00:46:13,400
um and and

926
00:46:17,770 --> 00:46:16,020
another aspect of it that was

927
00:46:22,010 --> 00:46:17,780
interesting to me

928
00:46:25,010 --> 00:46:22,020
is uh what I ended up doing was

929
00:46:27,050 --> 00:46:25,020
um submitting a foia request to the CIA

930
00:46:30,349 --> 00:46:27,060
for

931
00:46:32,630 --> 00:46:30,359
um all of the recipients of the award

932
00:46:35,270 --> 00:46:32,640
that he claimed he got and that other

933
00:46:39,530 --> 00:46:35,280
guy that was telling stories about being

934
00:46:44,150 --> 00:46:41,510
oh my God I like how we all had

935
00:46:47,270 --> 00:46:44,160
different names I said David Adair I

936
00:46:51,950 --> 00:46:47,280
said brilliant angle oh

937
00:46:54,170 --> 00:46:51,960
no no the other guy and I'm serious it

938
00:46:55,970 --> 00:46:54,180
was another of course yeah

939
00:46:59,750 --> 00:46:55,980
but uh

940
00:47:03,230 --> 00:46:59,760
um and all I asked for was the

941
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:03,240
recipients from like whatever year he

942
00:47:09,050 --> 00:47:05,760
said he got it I went back a couple

943
00:47:12,770 --> 00:47:09,060
years before that for like a five-year

944
00:47:16,309 --> 00:47:12,780
frame that are unclassified that you've

945
00:47:18,109 --> 00:47:16,319
announced were given these medals and I

946
00:47:20,870 --> 00:47:18,119
don't know you know whenever I wrote

947
00:47:23,329 --> 00:47:20,880
that article a year year and a half they

948
00:47:27,050 --> 00:47:23,339
still haven't responded you know and all

949
00:47:29,690 --> 00:47:27,060
I asked was for unclassified

950
00:47:33,650 --> 00:47:29,700
um who who have you acknowledged has

951
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:33,660
been given this award and they have not

952
00:47:37,970 --> 00:47:35,520
responded yet

953
00:47:40,250 --> 00:47:37,980
oh [\h__\h]

954
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:40,260
you know I want to uh

955
00:47:44,270 --> 00:47:42,000
when Jack and I were back channeling

956
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:44,280
before the show I explicitly told him

957
00:47:48,890 --> 00:47:45,839
that I was gonna ask about this because

958
00:47:51,890 --> 00:47:48,900
I think it's helpful both for the panels

959
00:47:53,569 --> 00:47:51,900
edification and also for listeners but I

960
00:47:56,809 --> 00:47:53,579
would love Jack if you could tell us a

961
00:48:00,109 --> 00:47:56,819
little bit about your research process

962
00:48:03,170 --> 00:48:00,119
um both in how you locate and find

963
00:48:05,870 --> 00:48:03,180
materials and then also just the kind of

964
00:48:08,390 --> 00:48:05,880
workflow that you employ in collecting

965
00:48:12,010 --> 00:48:08,400
research and then using it to surface

966
00:48:13,730 --> 00:48:12,020
different insights and materials

967
00:48:16,970 --> 00:48:13,740
sure

968
00:48:22,670 --> 00:48:16,980
um I use a lot of uh

969
00:48:26,109 --> 00:48:22,680
word programs I I type stuff down uh my

970
00:48:30,770 --> 00:48:26,119
thoughts my ideas about something

971
00:48:33,230 --> 00:48:30,780
and uh I I'll start putting links in a

972
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:33,240
program that I'll just name that file

973
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:36,960
you know what the topic is and so

974
00:48:41,630 --> 00:48:39,359
because it doesn't work for me to have

975
00:48:43,490 --> 00:48:41,640
links scattered I'll say you know a

976
00:48:46,250 --> 00:48:43,500
million links saved that I don't even

977
00:48:48,829 --> 00:48:46,260
remember what they're two so I'll start

978
00:48:51,550 --> 00:48:48,839
explaining what these links are to

979
00:48:56,450 --> 00:48:51,560
myself for me to look later

980
00:48:57,290 --> 00:48:56,460
and from that I will start getting

981
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:57,300
um

982
00:49:03,589 --> 00:49:00,000
it will become increasingly apparent

983
00:49:06,890 --> 00:49:03,599
what I should file for your request sign

984
00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:06,900
and and start trying to get some

985
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:10,020
authentication about

986
00:49:14,390 --> 00:49:10,880
um

987
00:49:15,589 --> 00:49:14,400
uh perhaps the the nycat board of

988
00:49:19,370 --> 00:49:15,599
directors

989
00:49:22,550 --> 00:49:19,380
um everybody says this guy was CIA where

990
00:49:26,930 --> 00:49:22,560
can we actually find that he was and not

991
00:49:28,849 --> 00:49:26,940
just quote some you know 1982 UFO

992
00:49:35,809 --> 00:49:28,859
newsletter

993
00:49:39,470 --> 00:49:35,819
the the foyas and try to get more and

994
00:49:42,650 --> 00:49:39,480
more to the source of how we know

995
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:42,660
someone was in an intelligence agency or

996
00:49:46,849 --> 00:49:44,880
how we know they were a speaker at a

997
00:49:49,609 --> 00:49:46,859
certain conference on a certain date

998
00:49:50,589 --> 00:49:49,619
things like that

999
00:49:54,530 --> 00:49:50,599
um

1000
00:49:55,970 --> 00:49:54,540
and then as we were discussing at the

1001
00:49:59,390 --> 00:49:55,980
beginning

1002
00:50:02,150 --> 00:49:59,400
um when I feel like I have uh a

1003
00:50:05,990 --> 00:50:02,160
reasonable amount of material that that

1004
00:50:08,329 --> 00:50:06,000
puts a story together puts a person with

1005
00:50:10,309 --> 00:50:08,339
an agency puts them somewhere at a

1006
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:10,319
certain time

1007
00:50:17,930 --> 00:50:14,040
um puts them at a UFO kind that they

1008
00:50:22,069 --> 00:50:17,940
were being paid by a county to appear at

1009
00:50:24,589 --> 00:50:22,079
um then I will ask that person

1010
00:50:27,410 --> 00:50:24,599
um what you know what do you have to say

1011
00:50:30,050 --> 00:50:27,420
for yourself what what's your

1012
00:50:32,750 --> 00:50:30,060
um take on this story like the one that

1013
00:50:36,250 --> 00:50:32,760
Erica and I did recently where like

1014
00:50:39,530 --> 00:50:36,260
what's your take that you have Financial

1015
00:50:42,589 --> 00:50:39,540
incentives to keep this narrative going

1016
00:50:46,970 --> 00:50:42,599
and to suppress

1017
00:50:50,329 --> 00:50:46,980
um information that is counter to UFOs

1018
00:50:52,309 --> 00:50:50,339
and goblins and stuff and

1019
00:50:54,829 --> 00:50:52,319
um then that's pretty much what the

1020
00:50:57,309 --> 00:50:54,839
story will be what what what I come up

1021
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:57,319
with in that process

1022
00:51:02,270 --> 00:51:00,000
I'm a really big fan of your blog UFO

1023
00:51:04,730 --> 00:51:02,280
Trail but um as Leo was pointing out

1024
00:51:06,290 --> 00:51:04,740
earlier a lot of the community kind of

1025
00:51:09,410 --> 00:51:06,300
is unwilling to have those hard

1026
00:51:12,170 --> 00:51:09,420
conversations and while I am like I said

1027
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:12,180
a big fan of your blog I feel like that

1028
00:51:16,490 --> 00:51:13,680
is kind of the audience that it should

1029
00:51:20,329 --> 00:51:16,500
be going to right how how do you write

1030
00:51:22,250 --> 00:51:20,339
skeptically for the UFO community and

1031
00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:22,260
have them be receptive to it because

1032
00:51:26,329 --> 00:51:24,720
that is something that I've tried to do

1033
00:51:28,250 --> 00:51:26,339
and failed

1034
00:51:30,109 --> 00:51:28,260
um in the past years I used to write a

1035
00:51:32,270 --> 00:51:30,119
skeptical magazine

1036
00:51:35,270 --> 00:51:32,280
um years ago and the whole premise

1037
00:51:36,589 --> 00:51:35,280
behind that was to direct it towards the

1038
00:51:38,329 --> 00:51:36,599
Believers in this group and get

1039
00:51:40,010 --> 00:51:38,339
conversations going

1040
00:51:43,549 --> 00:51:40,020
um but and it's something I talked with

1041
00:51:45,049 --> 00:51:43,559
Campbell a lot too how do we engage with

1042
00:51:46,309 --> 00:51:45,059
the people kind of with different

1043
00:51:48,290 --> 00:51:46,319
beliefs and then come to an

1044
00:51:51,490 --> 00:51:48,300
understanding and get them to have these

1045
00:51:56,210 --> 00:51:51,500
as Leah put hard conversations

1046
00:51:59,150 --> 00:51:56,220
that that is a great question and uh I

1047
00:52:01,130 --> 00:51:59,160
don't really have an answer for it other

1048
00:52:03,890 --> 00:52:01,140
than

1049
00:52:07,730 --> 00:52:03,900
it's important to identify our

1050
00:52:10,849 --> 00:52:07,740
objectives and Erica and I talk about

1051
00:52:13,190 --> 00:52:10,859
that that kind of thing all the time

1052
00:52:16,370 --> 00:52:13,200
um what's the objective here what are we

1053
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:16,380
trying to accomplish I I don't think

1054
00:52:23,690 --> 00:52:18,480
that

1055
00:52:25,549 --> 00:52:23,700
um changing Minds is a a good idea a

1056
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:25,559
good goal

1057
00:52:32,809 --> 00:52:29,700
um yes I didn't always feel that way

1058
00:52:35,930 --> 00:52:32,819
um I think the political climate made me

1059
00:52:38,990 --> 00:52:35,940
even even more

1060
00:52:40,490 --> 00:52:39,000
um towards that that that thought it

1061
00:52:43,849 --> 00:52:40,500
just

1062
00:52:47,450 --> 00:52:43,859
um gets so emotional and so personal and

1063
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,460
and it's just so often it it it's not

1064
00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:49,440
about evidence and I could be talking

1065
00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:53,160
about politics or UFOs here it's not

1066
00:52:58,130 --> 00:52:55,800
about evidence it's not about truth it's

1067
00:53:01,069 --> 00:52:58,140
just about I sure do hope that I can

1068
00:53:04,130 --> 00:53:01,079
make this person feel bad today you know

1069
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:04,140
like that that's so many people's goal

1070
00:53:12,589 --> 00:53:08,160
it seems and and so

1071
00:53:15,410 --> 00:53:12,599
in that way uh

1072
00:53:19,690 --> 00:53:15,420
I feel like the time that I wrote the

1073
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:19,700
UFO Trail and the two books was useful

1074
00:53:26,589 --> 00:53:22,319
in that

1075
00:53:30,589 --> 00:53:26,599
I elevated the voices of some people

1076
00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:30,599
that didn't feel heard and and that was

1077
00:53:36,049 --> 00:53:34,920
important to me and in doing that I feel

1078
00:53:37,069 --> 00:53:36,059
like

1079
00:53:42,530 --> 00:53:37,079
um

1080
00:53:47,390 --> 00:53:42,540
I I was able to kind of tell my story

1081
00:53:51,710 --> 00:53:47,400
through them as well that uh

1082
00:53:54,410 --> 00:53:51,720
um I feel like I got influenced

1083
00:53:57,790 --> 00:53:54,420
um during the the earlier part of my

1084
00:54:01,549 --> 00:53:57,800
life a lot by people that are

1085
00:54:03,130 --> 00:54:01,559
charismatic and can tell good stories

1086
00:54:08,089 --> 00:54:03,140
and

1087
00:54:11,210 --> 00:54:08,099
uh that that those stories may be

1088
00:54:13,609 --> 00:54:11,220
harmful to people to different extents

1089
00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:13,619
to to how much they choose to believe

1090
00:54:19,970 --> 00:54:16,319
that how much they identify with that

1091
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:19,980
how seriously they take it and and the

1092
00:54:27,349 --> 00:54:23,280
grades have been framed I I went pretty

1093
00:54:31,150 --> 00:54:27,359
deep with that into some areas that

1094
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:31,160
um some writers that are probably

1095
00:54:36,950 --> 00:54:34,079
smarter than me and certainly some that

1096
00:54:40,910 --> 00:54:36,960
are more experienced than I am

1097
00:54:44,329 --> 00:54:40,920
chose not to go they just choose not to

1098
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:44,339
go into the abduction thing and the

1099
00:54:52,790 --> 00:54:47,520
hypnosis and all that that it just gets

1100
00:54:57,470 --> 00:54:52,800
too sticky and I uh I decided to pull it

1101
00:55:01,549 --> 00:54:57,480
all out and it's ugly glory and uh just

1102
00:55:04,910 --> 00:55:01,559
put put pretty much uh 90 of what I know

1103
00:55:07,250 --> 00:55:04,920
about it from dealing with people like

1104
00:55:08,150 --> 00:55:07,260
Leah Haley

1105
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:08,160
um

1106
00:55:16,190 --> 00:55:13,680
Emma Woods Carol Rainey and some others

1107
00:55:18,170 --> 00:55:16,200
um into that book and then there were

1108
00:55:21,530 --> 00:55:18,180
other stories as well that didn't

1109
00:55:25,910 --> 00:55:21,540
involve the abduction theme but like

1110
00:55:30,349 --> 00:55:25,920
Simone Mendes who got caught up uh

1111
00:55:33,010 --> 00:55:30,359
serving as an Airman on a U.S Air Force

1112
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:33,020
Base got caught up in a story about

1113
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:37,680
supposed uh UFO documents being passed

1114
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:39,359
around and

1115
00:55:44,270 --> 00:55:42,000
um affected the rest of her life

1116
00:55:48,950 --> 00:55:44,280
and

1117
00:55:51,770 --> 00:55:48,960
um so I I felt like

1118
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:51,780
it was important to some of them the

1119
00:55:59,569 --> 00:55:54,480
work I did and that made it important to

1120
00:56:02,349 --> 00:55:59,579
me and then I was able to I felt like

1121
00:56:06,349 --> 00:56:02,359
um show some of the harm and the danger

1122
00:56:09,230 --> 00:56:06,359
that this stuff can represent

1123
00:56:12,970 --> 00:56:09,240
um without uh

1124
00:56:16,790 --> 00:56:12,980
really including my own personal

1125
00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:16,800
circumstances in it that I uh I got to

1126
00:56:23,329 --> 00:56:19,920
where it was almost therapeutic for me

1127
00:56:26,030 --> 00:56:23,339
to work on other people's stories rather

1128
00:56:29,270 --> 00:56:26,040
than just keep mucking around in my own

1129
00:56:32,030 --> 00:56:29,280
you know and and that that that was

1130
00:56:36,650 --> 00:56:32,040
meaningful to me so I don't think we can

1131
00:56:39,829 --> 00:56:36,660
change minds but uh that doesn't mean

1132
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:39,839
there can't be good reasons to take a

1133
00:56:48,710 --> 00:56:44,880
skeptical approach to it and uh maybe do

1134
00:56:51,650 --> 00:56:48,720
some good work with it as well

1135
00:56:53,329 --> 00:56:51,660
check this was uh I just want to say

1136
00:56:54,589 --> 00:56:53,339
this is a wonderfully compassionate

1137
00:56:56,809 --> 00:56:54,599
answer

1138
00:56:58,790 --> 00:56:56,819
um and it's something I have a history

1139
00:57:00,109 --> 00:56:58,800
of doing a lot of political and social

1140
00:57:03,230 --> 00:57:00,119
work

1141
00:57:05,390 --> 00:57:03,240
um and have come around similarly on

1142
00:57:07,970 --> 00:57:05,400
this idea that we really can't change

1143
00:57:10,849 --> 00:57:07,980
minds and so instead it's incumbent on

1144
00:57:13,069 --> 00:57:10,859
us to do three things which is to set

1145
00:57:14,870 --> 00:57:13,079
the example we'd like to see by others

1146
00:57:16,430 --> 00:57:14,880
even when it's hard especially when it's

1147
00:57:18,530 --> 00:57:16,440
hard like that's really when it matters

1148
00:57:20,690 --> 00:57:18,540
most is when it's hard

1149
00:57:23,809 --> 00:57:20,700
um also to make it safe for other people

1150
00:57:26,089 --> 00:57:23,819
to change their minds and I think that

1151
00:57:27,829 --> 00:57:26,099
that's a dynamic that is frequently left

1152
00:57:30,170 --> 00:57:27,839
out of these conversations it's

1153
00:57:32,510 --> 00:57:30,180
incumbent on us to make it safe for

1154
00:57:35,450 --> 00:57:32,520
people to alter the reviews without

1155
00:57:37,910 --> 00:57:35,460
denigrating them or making fun of them

1156
00:57:40,250 --> 00:57:37,920
or anything and instead to welcome this

1157
00:57:43,609 --> 00:57:40,260
change of hearts and change of views

1158
00:57:44,290 --> 00:57:43,619
um and then third to present information

1159
00:57:46,849 --> 00:57:44,300
um

1160
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:46,859
especially like I said going back about

1161
00:57:50,030 --> 00:57:48,480
setting the example presenting

1162
00:57:51,770 --> 00:57:50,040
information especially when it's hard to

1163
00:57:52,910 --> 00:57:51,780
present information

1164
00:57:54,890 --> 00:57:52,920
um

1165
00:57:56,510 --> 00:57:54,900
and I feel like

1166
00:57:59,690 --> 00:57:56,520
um

1167
00:58:02,030 --> 00:57:59,700
you know I do keep going back to this

1168
00:58:03,650 --> 00:58:02,040
idea of like what good stewardship looks

1169
00:58:05,450 --> 00:58:03,660
like in this community what does it mean

1170
00:58:09,049 --> 00:58:05,460
to be a culture carrier in this

1171
00:58:11,329 --> 00:58:09,059
community in a way that um improves it

1172
00:58:13,849 --> 00:58:11,339
not only for our individual experiences

1173
00:58:15,890 --> 00:58:13,859
but for the communities experience

1174
00:58:17,089 --> 00:58:15,900
and based on your experience in this

1175
00:58:18,530 --> 00:58:17,099
space

1176
00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:18,540
um and sort of the the many different

1177
00:58:22,130 --> 00:58:20,160
stories you've lived and writing your

1178
00:58:23,809 --> 00:58:22,140
books and your blog what are your

1179
00:58:26,089 --> 00:58:23,819
thoughts on good stewardship in this

1180
00:58:27,890 --> 00:58:26,099
community what does it look like

1181
00:58:29,030 --> 00:58:27,900
um and how can we kind of carry the

1182
00:58:33,290 --> 00:58:29,040
torch

1183
00:58:41,030 --> 00:58:36,650
the the first thing that comes to mind

1184
00:58:44,210 --> 00:58:41,040
is sincerity uh I I think what you said

1185
00:58:46,190 --> 00:58:44,220
there Leah is powerful I think it's

1186
00:58:49,250 --> 00:58:46,200
accurate

1187
00:58:52,910 --> 00:58:49,260
I I think that if people are being

1188
00:58:56,109 --> 00:58:52,920
sincere there has to be room for that

1189
00:59:00,670 --> 00:58:56,119
and and it's okay for them to be wrong

1190
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:00,680
and then as you so aptly pointed out

1191
00:59:08,510 --> 00:59:05,520
there has to be room for them to say I

1192
00:59:12,890 --> 00:59:08,520
was wrong and that doesn't mean

1193
00:59:16,490 --> 00:59:12,900
um that they're uh exiled from from

1194
00:59:19,309 --> 00:59:16,500
further discussion and the community and

1195
00:59:21,470 --> 00:59:19,319
this kind of goes back to discussing the

1196
00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:21,480
scientific process

1197
00:59:25,990 --> 00:59:25,200
as I was working on

1198
00:59:29,630 --> 00:59:26,000
um

1199
00:59:32,809 --> 00:59:29,640
interviews and emails and and uh

1200
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:32,819
interacting with Leah Haley and Emma

1201
00:59:36,650 --> 00:59:35,280
Woods for instance

1202
00:59:41,150 --> 00:59:36,660
uh

1203
00:59:42,289 --> 00:59:41,160
it occurred to me during that point in

1204
00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:42,299
time

1205
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:46,799
that of course their ideas about things

1206
00:59:53,630 --> 00:59:49,500
that had been happening to them changed

1207
00:59:57,650 --> 00:59:53,640
over time because for that not to be the

1208
01:00:00,370 --> 00:59:57,660
case would would mean that

1209
01:00:03,410 --> 01:00:00,380
people are just right about everything

1210
01:00:07,329 --> 01:00:03,420
right from the beginning and that never

1211
01:00:12,109 --> 01:00:07,339
changes and that's just not realistic

1212
01:00:15,549 --> 01:00:12,119
yet we do see a lot of insincere Clarity

1213
01:00:18,650 --> 01:00:15,559
along those lines in the UFO Community

1214
01:00:22,010 --> 01:00:18,660
people that will cling to their

1215
01:00:24,069 --> 01:00:22,020
narrative about a case for 30 years or

1216
01:00:27,230 --> 01:00:24,079
something like that and just stop

1217
01:00:28,270 --> 01:00:27,240
incorporating new information into the

1218
01:00:31,789 --> 01:00:28,280
equation

1219
01:00:34,870 --> 01:00:31,799
and I very much felt that people like

1220
01:00:37,329 --> 01:00:34,880
Leah Haley and Emma Woods and others

1221
01:00:40,849 --> 01:00:37,339
needed to be

1222
01:00:43,069 --> 01:00:40,859
supported for that willingness to tap

1223
01:00:45,650 --> 01:00:43,079
the brakes and say you know this really

1224
01:00:48,589 --> 01:00:45,660
just doesn't make sense

1225
01:00:51,470 --> 01:00:48,599
um I I'm not sure that this is a good

1226
01:00:55,130 --> 01:00:51,480
thing that has happened in my life and I

1227
01:00:58,430 --> 01:00:55,140
need to rethink this and there's a lot

1228
01:01:00,349 --> 01:00:58,440
of complications around all of that

1229
01:01:05,089 --> 01:01:00,359
uh

1230
01:01:08,450 --> 01:01:05,099
it's sticky it's real sticky

1231
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:08,460
um but certainly averting from it is not

1232
01:01:14,270 --> 01:01:10,160
part of the solution

1233
01:01:17,650 --> 01:01:14,280
and because if we avert from it we're

1234
01:01:22,549 --> 01:01:17,660
just continuing to allow

1235
01:01:24,650 --> 01:01:22,559
organizations to enable hypnotists and

1236
01:01:29,589 --> 01:01:24,660
people that

1237
01:01:33,650 --> 01:01:29,599
um traffic in these stories and needed

1238
01:01:37,910 --> 01:01:33,660
these hypnosis subjects in order to come

1239
01:01:43,789 --> 01:01:41,089
the uh the historical focus on hypnosis

1240
01:01:46,789 --> 01:01:43,799
uh from an evidence-based perspective is

1241
01:01:48,829 --> 01:01:46,799
clearly highly problematic and it's an

1242
01:01:51,950 --> 01:01:48,839
interesting question to what extent

1243
01:01:54,349 --> 01:01:51,960
it was known at the time that it was not

1244
01:01:58,190 --> 01:01:54,359
actually producing accurate results and

1245
01:02:00,890 --> 01:01:58,200
just a very uh brief uh thing I recalled

1246
01:02:02,750 --> 01:02:00,900
in that line you mentioned uh the former

1247
01:02:05,270 --> 01:02:02,760
FBI director Hoover

1248
01:02:09,170 --> 01:02:05,280
there are memos that we have written by

1249
01:02:11,870 --> 01:02:09,180
him verifying that he knew that a lie

1250
01:02:14,450 --> 01:02:11,880
detector tests were not accurate that's

1251
01:02:16,670 --> 01:02:14,460
just he knew that they need we also have

1252
01:02:19,549 --> 01:02:16,680
memos that he is using them to get

1253
01:02:21,470 --> 01:02:19,559
people convicted for things so that's a

1254
01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:21,480
conspiracy I mean you know so they're

1255
01:02:25,370 --> 01:02:23,760
doing this stuff that said like you know

1256
01:02:27,589 --> 01:02:25,380
then you've got to infer all the other

1257
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:27,599
things now this is an interesting thing

1258
01:02:33,289 --> 01:02:30,240
in this subject where the more I've sort

1259
01:02:37,609 --> 01:02:33,299
of gotten into trying to figure stuff

1260
01:02:39,829 --> 01:02:37,619
out uh you know the more I tend to just

1261
01:02:41,569 --> 01:02:39,839
bring it up to friends and stuff like

1262
01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:41,579
that and I'd like to hear your opinion

1263
01:02:46,490 --> 01:02:44,400
about this when I say something to the

1264
01:02:48,289 --> 01:02:46,500
effect of oh you know I sort of do like

1265
01:02:49,630 --> 01:02:48,299
UFO skeptic stuff

1266
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:49,640
um sort of arguing against the

1267
01:02:52,910 --> 01:02:51,599
Extraterrestrial hypothesis and things

1268
01:02:54,890 --> 01:02:52,920
like that if I bring that up to like a

1269
01:02:56,690 --> 01:02:54,900
casual friend the next time I see them

1270
01:02:58,490 --> 01:02:56,700
they'll say something like oh how's the

1271
01:03:02,390 --> 01:02:58,500
alien stuff going

1272
01:03:04,970 --> 01:03:02,400
and so it's like if I uh sort of leaned

1273
01:03:07,370 --> 01:03:04,980
into becoming a uh you know a Christian

1274
01:03:09,230 --> 01:03:07,380
skeptic it feels a little bit like

1275
01:03:12,109 --> 01:03:09,240
people would think I was a Christian

1276
01:03:15,470 --> 01:03:12,119
uh you know based on the way that the

1277
01:03:19,010 --> 01:03:15,480
UFO topic has such a stigma that it

1278
01:03:21,710 --> 01:03:19,020
seems to touch and poison anything that

1279
01:03:23,569 --> 01:03:21,720
comes into contact with it and I'm

1280
01:03:25,309 --> 01:03:23,579
wondering Jack if you've had this

1281
01:03:27,289 --> 01:03:25,319
experience experience yourself that it

1282
01:03:30,230 --> 01:03:27,299
produces a stigma to some extent to even

1283
01:03:32,270 --> 01:03:30,240
investigate it critically and if that is

1284
01:03:33,609 --> 01:03:32,280
the case if what you have done to try to

1285
01:03:37,150 --> 01:03:33,619
counter that

1286
01:03:41,089 --> 01:03:37,160
oh hell yes

1287
01:03:42,589 --> 01:03:41,099
I I would suspect you guys have found

1288
01:03:44,450 --> 01:03:42,599
that

1289
01:03:47,630 --> 01:03:44,460
um

1290
01:03:50,569 --> 01:03:47,640
you probably have suspected if people

1291
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:50,579
didn't outright tell you that potential

1292
01:03:54,710 --> 01:03:51,839
guests

1293
01:03:58,970 --> 01:03:54,720
um declined invitations or didn't come

1294
01:04:01,190 --> 01:03:58,980
on if they see what some of your past

1295
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:01,200
um topics have been about or what

1296
01:04:08,450 --> 01:04:04,400
invisible night school is a reference to

1297
01:04:11,089 --> 01:04:08,460
it's like you know look I I got a good

1298
01:04:14,809 --> 01:04:11,099
gig writing for the post I don't need to

1299
01:04:18,890 --> 01:04:14,819
get involved in this stuff you know and

1300
01:04:23,450 --> 01:04:18,900
um yeah absolutely that that comes up my

1301
01:04:25,210 --> 01:04:23,460
personal experience is uh

1302
01:04:28,250 --> 01:04:25,220
um with

1303
01:04:31,130 --> 01:04:28,260
casual acquaintances

1304
01:04:34,430 --> 01:04:31,140
um like uh neighborhood block parties

1305
01:04:38,990 --> 01:04:34,440
things like that I would just as soon

1306
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:39,000
they not know because uh uh

1307
01:04:45,289 --> 01:04:42,000
I I don't want to deal with them telling

1308
01:04:48,109 --> 01:04:45,299
me you know CNN reported that they're

1309
01:04:50,329 --> 01:04:48,119
real man I saw it on TV because then

1310
01:04:52,849 --> 01:04:50,339
I'll just be like you know yeah yeah

1311
01:04:56,450 --> 01:04:52,859
that's who who brought the salad it's

1312
01:04:58,670 --> 01:04:56,460
pretty good you know like I'm not gonna

1313
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:58,680
be at the guy at the party that like

1314
01:05:04,450 --> 01:05:00,960
turns into Cliff Clavin and it's like

1315
01:05:11,089 --> 01:05:04,460
well actually yes

1316
01:05:15,410 --> 01:05:11,099
1983. you know um but uh yeah

1317
01:05:19,370 --> 01:05:15,420
um one of the reasons that that is is

1318
01:05:22,970 --> 01:05:19,380
certainly played a factor and the name

1319
01:05:25,789 --> 01:05:22,980
of the non-profit organization being

1320
01:05:28,789 --> 01:05:25,799
expanding Frontiers research

1321
01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:28,799
picking up other other

1322
01:05:34,809 --> 01:05:32,160
um topics wanting to go into other

1323
01:05:38,690 --> 01:05:34,819
social areas of interest

1324
01:05:43,609 --> 01:05:38,700
uh in order to

1325
01:05:44,329 --> 01:05:43,619
um potentially appeal to to people who

1326
01:05:47,690 --> 01:05:44,339
um

1327
01:05:51,230 --> 01:05:47,700
do not want to be associated with with

1328
01:05:55,490 --> 01:05:51,240
the UFO topic and appeal in a number of

1329
01:05:56,990 --> 01:05:55,500
ways and uh the stigma is very much

1330
01:06:05,170 --> 01:05:57,000
earned

1331
01:06:08,569 --> 01:06:05,180
are there reasonable

1332
01:06:12,109 --> 01:06:08,579
legitimate topics to look at that are

1333
01:06:14,210 --> 01:06:12,119
associated with UFOs absolutely there

1334
01:06:18,589 --> 01:06:14,220
are uh the things we've been talking

1335
01:06:22,010 --> 01:06:18,599
about nycap uh the political landscape

1336
01:06:26,569 --> 01:06:22,020
that's associated with UFOs the Medias

1337
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:26,579
dance with UFOs all of that would be

1338
01:06:37,190 --> 01:06:31,680
major news if it were about a different

1339
01:06:38,210 --> 01:06:37,200
topic you know it would be major news

1340
01:06:41,390 --> 01:06:38,220
um

1341
01:06:44,870 --> 01:06:41,400
which is which is something to discuss

1342
01:06:48,890 --> 01:06:44,880
itself that uh you know I I did a blog

1343
01:06:49,789 --> 01:06:48,900
post at efr recently on that that

1344
01:06:55,010 --> 01:06:49,799
um

1345
01:06:59,029 --> 01:06:55,020
the involvement with UFOs colored the

1346
01:07:02,329 --> 01:06:59,039
legacies of CIA officers that otherwise

1347
01:07:05,470 --> 01:07:02,339
I mean like Helen coder might be

1348
01:07:09,529 --> 01:07:05,480
remembered as the father of mind control

1349
01:07:12,049 --> 01:07:09,539
research you know I mean before there

1350
01:07:14,750 --> 01:07:12,059
was Sydney Gottlieb and MK Ultra there

1351
01:07:19,150 --> 01:07:14,760
was Hill encoder signing off on Bluebird

1352
01:07:22,990 --> 01:07:19,160
you know that that set up an office of

1353
01:07:24,549 --> 01:07:23,000
psychologists in DC that uh were

1354
01:07:26,809 --> 01:07:24,559
indoctrinating

1355
01:07:28,130 --> 01:07:26,819
research subjects

1356
01:07:29,630 --> 01:07:28,140
so

1357
01:07:33,410 --> 01:07:29,640
uh

1358
01:07:36,370 --> 01:07:33,420
do historians know more about that than

1359
01:07:40,490 --> 01:07:36,380
people in the UFO Community yes they do

1360
01:07:42,410 --> 01:07:40,500
but certainly those of us involved in in

1361
01:07:47,690 --> 01:07:42,420
UFOs

1362
01:07:50,390 --> 01:07:47,700
um tend to have a much more fond view of

1363
01:07:53,029 --> 01:07:50,400
this hill encoder guy that pretty much

1364
01:07:56,170 --> 01:07:53,039
what most people know about Helen coder

1365
01:07:59,150 --> 01:07:56,180
is just some uh

1366
01:08:02,270 --> 01:07:59,160
uh quote that they saw on a website

1367
01:08:05,450 --> 01:08:02,280
somewhere and he was Pro UFO so he's

1368
01:08:09,829 --> 01:08:05,460
he's good in their book you know and but

1369
01:08:10,690 --> 01:08:09,839
yes the the stigma is earned it it's

1370
01:08:14,270 --> 01:08:10,700
um

1371
01:08:17,570 --> 01:08:14,280
if people are involved in my life like

1372
01:08:20,749 --> 01:08:17,580
in the real life Community I live in I

1373
01:08:22,550 --> 01:08:20,759
just assume them not even know of what I

1374
01:08:23,349 --> 01:08:22,560
do and all

1375
01:08:27,709 --> 01:08:23,359
um

1376
01:08:30,229 --> 01:08:27,719
it's uh problematic it just is you know

1377
01:08:32,930 --> 01:08:30,239
it's problematic

1378
01:08:34,490 --> 01:08:32,940
yeah I am I hear you I just gave a

1379
01:08:36,050 --> 01:08:34,500
professional interview and managed to

1380
01:08:38,689 --> 01:08:36,060
get through all the questions without

1381
01:08:39,829 --> 01:08:38,699
talking about UFOs once

1382
01:08:42,229 --> 01:08:39,839
um anyone who would see this interview

1383
01:08:44,390 --> 01:08:42,239
would think there were two Vias Leah and

1384
01:08:45,110 --> 01:08:44,400
Leah Prime I guess

1385
01:08:47,269 --> 01:08:45,120
um

1386
01:08:49,910 --> 01:08:47,279
and it's interesting so my experience

1387
01:08:51,590 --> 01:08:49,920
around the stigma in this subject is uh

1388
01:08:53,809 --> 01:08:51,600
almost that this is like the love that

1389
01:08:56,150 --> 01:08:53,819
dare not speak its name where the moment

1390
01:08:58,669 --> 01:08:56,160
somebody finds out it's an interest of

1391
01:09:00,169 --> 01:08:58,679
mine people love to talk about it they

1392
01:09:03,289 --> 01:09:00,179
want to talk to me about what they've

1393
01:09:05,749 --> 01:09:03,299
seen what they've heard what I think

1394
01:09:07,610 --> 01:09:05,759
um so it does in many respects feel kind

1395
01:09:09,169 --> 01:09:07,620
of like the ultimate or final social

1396
01:09:12,169 --> 01:09:09,179
taboo

1397
01:09:14,510 --> 01:09:12,179
um although I do also believe that that

1398
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:14,520
stigma is

1399
01:09:18,829 --> 01:09:17,279
almost kind of internally generated like

1400
01:09:20,510 --> 01:09:18,839
I think a lot of people think there's a

1401
01:09:21,349 --> 01:09:20,520
stigma but

1402
01:09:23,269 --> 01:09:21,359
um

1403
01:09:25,430 --> 01:09:23,279
my experience has been that it's

1404
01:09:27,410 --> 01:09:25,440
probably not as stigmatized as a

1405
01:09:29,390 --> 01:09:27,420
researcher as it is from someone who's

1406
01:09:30,769 --> 01:09:29,400
claiming to have an experience or you

1407
01:09:33,229 --> 01:09:30,779
know something like that something truly

1408
01:09:35,090 --> 01:09:33,239
like kind of pretty far out versus hey

1409
01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:35,100
there's this weird thing that I'm into

1410
01:09:38,150 --> 01:09:36,480
and you should probably know about it

1411
01:09:40,729 --> 01:09:38,160
right I'm not sure how many dates in I'd

1412
01:09:42,890 --> 01:09:40,739
get before I disclose that to someone

1413
01:09:42,900 --> 01:09:47,590
but um you know I just think this is

1414
01:09:56,570 --> 01:09:53,090
like how how do we navigate this stigma

1415
01:09:58,310 --> 01:09:56,580
um and I think more than that how do we

1416
01:10:01,550 --> 01:09:58,320
consider

1417
01:10:04,189 --> 01:10:01,560
um the relationship between this subject

1418
01:10:06,709 --> 01:10:04,199
um and and I'm gonna go there guys and

1419
01:10:08,630 --> 01:10:06,719
uh far right and alt-right talking

1420
01:10:13,130 --> 01:10:08,640
points and I bring this up because

1421
01:10:13,729 --> 01:10:13,140
there's a huge amount of passes given to

1422
01:10:16,430 --> 01:10:13,739
um

1423
01:10:17,870 --> 01:10:16,440
people in this community where they're

1424
01:10:20,510 --> 01:10:17,880
just written off as well it's okay

1425
01:10:25,250 --> 01:10:20,520
because he was talking about UFOs right

1426
01:10:27,169 --> 01:10:25,260
like like all the time right and

1427
01:10:29,930 --> 01:10:27,179
um

1428
01:10:32,630 --> 01:10:29,940
I I struggle with this a lot because I I

1429
01:10:35,689 --> 01:10:32,640
feel like when the alt-right or the far

1430
01:10:39,229 --> 01:10:35,699
right picks up ufology as a subject it

1431
01:10:41,810 --> 01:10:39,239
is done with the underlying intention of

1432
01:10:44,510 --> 01:10:41,820
contributing to this

1433
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:44,520
um epistemological crisis and

1434
01:10:48,950 --> 01:10:46,320
undermining like the government and

1435
01:10:50,209 --> 01:10:48,960
undermining sort of shared truths and

1436
01:10:52,970 --> 01:10:50,219
reality

1437
01:10:55,729 --> 01:10:52,980
and but on the other hand

1438
01:11:00,950 --> 01:10:58,729
like I I guess this is all a very windy

1439
01:11:03,950 --> 01:11:00,960
way to to try and broach the topic about

1440
01:11:06,169 --> 01:11:03,960
how these ideas are being co-opted

1441
01:11:08,209 --> 01:11:06,179
basically for nefarious purposes

1442
01:11:10,010 --> 01:11:08,219
politically and socially and culturally

1443
01:11:18,169 --> 01:11:10,020
and

1444
01:11:23,030 --> 01:11:19,669
go ahead

1445
01:11:25,490 --> 01:11:23,040
one of you guys I I mean would I keep

1446
01:11:28,250 --> 01:11:25,500
coming back to is

1447
01:11:28,790 --> 01:11:28,260
similar to what I said about

1448
01:11:32,209 --> 01:11:28,800
um

1449
01:11:34,490 --> 01:11:32,219
the willingness to set the example

1450
01:11:36,890 --> 01:11:34,500
and to

1451
01:11:39,470 --> 01:11:36,900
basically be as impeccable and personal

1452
01:11:41,930 --> 01:11:39,480
conduct and behavior as possible so that

1453
01:11:43,669 --> 01:11:41,940
when you raise questions or when you

1454
01:11:44,689 --> 01:11:43,679
raise issues about this stuff people

1455
01:11:46,250 --> 01:11:44,699
listen

1456
01:11:48,709 --> 01:11:46,260
if you're constantly sort of

1457
01:11:50,030 --> 01:11:48,719
neurotically generating polemics you

1458
01:11:52,070 --> 01:11:50,040
know like the boy who cried well if

1459
01:11:54,530 --> 01:11:52,080
people stop listening

1460
01:11:56,630 --> 01:11:54,540
um but if you're kind of selectively and

1461
01:11:58,430 --> 01:11:56,640
intelligently choose your battles and

1462
01:12:00,110 --> 01:11:58,440
you otherwise show yourself to be a good

1463
01:12:02,990 --> 01:12:00,120
Steward acting with high integrity

1464
01:12:04,850 --> 01:12:03,000
people do pay attention it's it's not

1465
01:12:06,350 --> 01:12:04,860
necessarily comfortable but they do pay

1466
01:12:09,649 --> 01:12:06,360
attention

1467
01:12:12,649 --> 01:12:09,659
it's really alarming how many um excuses

1468
01:12:15,110 --> 01:12:12,659
you see uh you know these these UFO

1469
01:12:17,149 --> 01:12:15,120
figureheads going on Tucker Carlson uh

1470
01:12:18,830 --> 01:12:17,159
someone who preaches the the white

1471
01:12:20,870 --> 01:12:18,840
replacement Theory they're saying like

1472
01:12:22,729 --> 01:12:20,880
well Tucker's bad but at least he's

1473
01:12:24,649 --> 01:12:22,739
getting the UFO narrative out there but

1474
01:12:26,630 --> 01:12:24,659
this is a narrative that's existed for

1475
01:12:29,750 --> 01:12:26,640
my entire life it's a narrative that's

1476
01:12:31,970 --> 01:12:29,760
existed you know since 1947. it's it's

1477
01:12:33,590 --> 01:12:31,980
part of Pop Culture so you know

1478
01:12:36,530 --> 01:12:33,600
mainstreaming a narrative that already

1479
01:12:37,910 --> 01:12:36,540
exists isn't a good excuse to be you

1480
01:12:41,510 --> 01:12:37,920
know supporting something like that in

1481
01:12:44,209 --> 01:12:41,520
my opinion I think uh staying consistent

1482
01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:44,219
with your own morals um even if you love

1483
01:12:48,709 --> 01:12:46,320
UFOs is really important like you said

1484
01:12:49,970 --> 01:12:48,719
Leah because it it's getting more

1485
01:12:52,669 --> 01:12:49,980
frequent I think there was a Tucker

1486
01:12:55,689 --> 01:12:52,679
special on it a night ago about those uh

1487
01:13:00,050 --> 01:12:55,699
those searchlights

1488
01:13:01,370 --> 01:13:00,060
it's challenging too

1489
01:13:06,950 --> 01:13:01,380
um

1490
01:13:10,669 --> 01:13:06,960
about uh are we crossing the aisle and

1491
01:13:13,790 --> 01:13:10,679
and and trying to in a show of good

1492
01:13:17,630 --> 01:13:13,800
faith or are we

1493
01:13:20,390 --> 01:13:17,640
um being manipulated sometimes too by

1494
01:13:26,209 --> 01:13:20,400
these podcasts these because it's not

1495
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:26,219
just high-end news organizations it's uh

1496
01:13:32,689 --> 01:13:29,760
um it it trickles down as well

1497
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:32,699
um when when I was

1498
01:13:36,290 --> 01:13:33,600
um

1499
01:13:39,709 --> 01:13:36,300
getting ready to be interviewed in I

1500
01:13:42,649 --> 01:13:39,719
guess 2016 one time uh

1501
01:13:46,910 --> 01:13:42,659
for uh one of the Grays had just come

1502
01:13:50,149 --> 01:13:46,920
out I'm in the you know the uh

1503
01:13:53,630 --> 01:13:50,159
um electronic green room waiting to come

1504
01:13:56,410 --> 01:13:53,640
on and I'm hearing these two guys

1505
01:13:58,450 --> 01:13:56,420
um they're they're just going off man

1506
01:14:02,450 --> 01:13:58,460
about

1507
01:14:03,950 --> 01:14:02,460
right-wing extrema stuff and uh and I'm

1508
01:14:04,610 --> 01:14:03,960
thinking wow

1509
01:14:07,310 --> 01:14:04,620
um

1510
01:14:09,530 --> 01:14:07,320
and I'm I'm thinking what should I do

1511
01:14:12,290 --> 01:14:09,540
you know and I went ahead and I stuck

1512
01:14:13,010 --> 01:14:12,300
with it and I did the show

1513
01:14:18,790 --> 01:14:13,020
um

1514
01:14:21,950 --> 01:14:18,800
but yeah it was it was weird it was uh

1515
01:14:25,490 --> 01:14:21,960
like wow I thought we were here to talk

1516
01:14:27,890 --> 01:14:25,500
about UFOs I guess I got that wrong

1517
01:14:30,610 --> 01:14:27,900
um we were just you know maybe just to

1518
01:14:33,470 --> 01:14:30,620
pull people like like it becomes

1519
01:14:35,870 --> 01:14:33,480
difficult to tell or they pulling my

1520
01:14:37,490 --> 01:14:35,880
people or am I pulling theirs what are

1521
01:14:40,610 --> 01:14:37,500
we doing here

1522
01:14:43,189 --> 01:14:40,620
um how much do they overlap and the

1523
01:14:46,250 --> 01:14:43,199
article that I mentioned earlier

1524
01:14:49,910 --> 01:14:46,260
um that Erica shared with me was um

1525
01:14:53,630 --> 01:14:49,920
written in 1993 and that's what it was

1526
01:14:55,729 --> 01:14:53,640
about was this this author was concerned

1527
01:14:58,250 --> 01:14:55,739
about

1528
01:15:00,430 --> 01:14:58,260
um people with political agendas or

1529
01:15:04,669 --> 01:15:00,440
pulling UFO

1530
01:15:07,550 --> 01:15:04,679
interested people and and you know give

1531
01:15:12,229 --> 01:15:07,560
them two or three sentences on UFOs and

1532
01:15:15,110 --> 01:15:12,239
and then 90 of their content on

1533
01:15:18,110 --> 01:15:15,120
um you know how how to fix the problem

1534
01:15:20,209 --> 01:15:18,120
with this or that ethnic

1535
01:15:24,229 --> 01:15:20,219
group or race

1536
01:15:27,530 --> 01:15:24,239
and uh and and that goes again you know

1537
01:15:31,669 --> 01:15:27,540
back to the 70s the 50s

1538
01:15:35,290 --> 01:15:31,679
um the UFO topic has always been

1539
01:15:37,729 --> 01:15:35,300
um exploited and used in that way

1540
01:15:40,910 --> 01:15:37,739
and uh

1541
01:15:44,810 --> 01:15:40,920
it it's really frustrating to see people

1542
01:15:47,510 --> 01:15:44,820
argue that when when like there's only

1543
01:15:50,270 --> 01:15:47,520
two ways they can argue that they're

1544
01:15:52,970 --> 01:15:50,280
ignorant and unaware of it or they're

1545
01:15:55,490 --> 01:15:52,980
being intentionally obtuse and don't

1546
01:15:58,130 --> 01:15:55,500
want and because they're doing it right

1547
01:16:03,530 --> 01:15:58,140
now you know

1548
01:16:05,450 --> 01:16:03,540
um it is an issue it always has been and

1549
01:16:12,110 --> 01:16:05,460
uh

1550
01:16:17,510 --> 01:16:14,870
is everyone in the audience on the panel

1551
01:16:19,130 --> 01:16:17,520
is I'm sure exhausted of hearing me talk

1552
01:16:20,750 --> 01:16:19,140
about them I'm fairly involved in the

1553
01:16:23,450 --> 01:16:20,760
Psychedelic Community from the

1554
01:16:25,370 --> 01:16:23,460
perspective of integrated healing

1555
01:16:27,830 --> 01:16:25,380
um and like medical applications all

1556
01:16:29,750 --> 01:16:27,840
above board blah blah blah but I bring

1557
01:16:32,209 --> 01:16:29,760
this up because we also see a similar

1558
01:16:33,649 --> 01:16:32,219
encroachment in that space of alt-right

1559
01:16:37,790 --> 01:16:33,659
and far-right

1560
01:16:40,430 --> 01:16:37,800
um both funders and Views and champions

1561
01:16:43,070 --> 01:16:40,440
and it feels like the common theme Here

1562
01:16:47,870 --> 01:16:43,080
is at the core of these subjects whether

1563
01:16:50,450 --> 01:16:47,880
psychedelic experience or ufology or

1564
01:16:52,610 --> 01:16:50,460
spirituality is

1565
01:16:55,370 --> 01:16:52,620
um the subjective experience

1566
01:16:56,990 --> 01:16:55,380
and and the the far right and sort of

1567
01:16:59,090 --> 01:16:57,000
authoritarian sympathy is understand

1568
01:17:02,209 --> 01:16:59,100
that the subjective experience is

1569
01:17:05,450 --> 01:17:02,219
something that can be deliberately

1570
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:05,460
shaped and formed in particular

1571
01:17:09,590 --> 01:17:07,199
directions

1572
01:17:12,350 --> 01:17:09,600
and that there are extremely efficacious

1573
01:17:14,270 --> 01:17:12,360
spaces in which to participate in that

1574
01:17:18,130 --> 01:17:14,280
shaping and forming

1575
01:17:21,590 --> 01:17:18,140
um and it

1576
01:17:23,990 --> 01:17:21,600
feels to me that

1577
01:17:26,030 --> 01:17:24,000
um we have to almost thread this needle

1578
01:17:28,370 --> 01:17:26,040
between recognizing sort of the low

1579
01:17:30,910 --> 01:17:28,380
information Zone and the subjectivity of

1580
01:17:34,510 --> 01:17:30,920
this sub of this topic in this community

1581
01:17:37,010 --> 01:17:34,520
while also taking or having deliberate

1582
01:17:39,350 --> 01:17:37,020
heuristics and boundaries about what's

1583
01:17:40,850 --> 01:17:39,360
acceptable Within These spaces right we

1584
01:17:43,070 --> 01:17:40,860
don't want to criminalize thought or

1585
01:17:44,930 --> 01:17:43,080
views or ideas but we also want to make

1586
01:17:46,750 --> 01:17:44,940
sure that

1587
01:17:51,890 --> 01:17:46,760
um

1588
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:51,900
exclusionary and harmful views and

1589
01:17:56,330 --> 01:17:54,239
practices don't take a foothold and I

1590
01:17:58,910 --> 01:17:56,340
mean we sort of we run into I guess like

1591
01:18:01,310 --> 01:17:58,920
the Paradox of um tolerance right where

1592
01:18:03,530 --> 01:18:01,320
by virtue of tolerating anyone and

1593
01:18:06,890 --> 01:18:03,540
everyone in this community

1594
01:18:08,990 --> 01:18:06,900
um individuals are also able to leverage

1595
01:18:11,630 --> 01:18:09,000
some of the best parts of the community

1596
01:18:14,209 --> 01:18:11,640
against itself you know by exploiting

1597
01:18:15,950 --> 01:18:14,219
this this willingness to tolerate all

1598
01:18:18,110 --> 01:18:15,960
variety of experience and Views and

1599
01:18:19,910 --> 01:18:18,120
that's why I think I keep coming back to

1600
01:18:22,910 --> 01:18:19,920
this idea of like

1601
01:18:25,790 --> 01:18:22,920
how do you identify and and measure and

1602
01:18:29,270 --> 01:18:25,800
assess good actors versus bad how do you

1603
01:18:31,010 --> 01:18:29,280
identify and assess reliability or

1604
01:18:32,810 --> 01:18:31,020
expertise

1605
01:18:34,610 --> 01:18:32,820
um and it feels to me just increasingly

1606
01:18:37,250 --> 01:18:34,620
that this is at the heart of so much of

1607
01:18:38,810 --> 01:18:37,260
our modern experience

1608
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:38,820
um and I think it you know what we're

1609
01:18:43,189 --> 01:18:41,040
seeing here is happening in every

1610
01:18:44,810 --> 01:18:43,199
subculture I'm a member of it's not just

1611
01:18:46,490 --> 01:18:44,820
ufology it's literally every other

1612
01:18:48,169 --> 01:18:46,500
community I'm a member of is contending

1613
01:18:50,570 --> 01:18:48,179
with these questions because the fascist

1614
01:18:52,370 --> 01:18:50,580
creeped so to speak and everyone can get

1615
01:18:54,890 --> 01:18:52,380
mad in my DMs I'm not speaking for my

1616
01:18:56,510 --> 01:18:54,900
panelists here but it's um it's gaining

1617
01:18:58,430 --> 01:18:56,520
Traction in pretty startling ways

1618
01:19:01,610 --> 01:18:58,440
especially in these kind of otherwise

1619
01:19:05,030 --> 01:19:01,620
subversive or oppositional subcultures

1620
01:19:07,310 --> 01:19:05,040
on uh on invisible night school we've

1621
01:19:09,649 --> 01:19:07,320
emphasized historically that we are not

1622
01:19:11,810 --> 01:19:09,659
a monolith and I think that's certainly

1623
01:19:13,130 --> 01:19:11,820
true although we do have shared opinions

1624
01:19:16,189 --> 01:19:13,140
clearly

1625
01:19:17,689 --> 01:19:16,199
um on this subject I I was having some

1626
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:17,699
thoughts when we were talking before and

1627
01:19:22,910 --> 01:19:20,400
I'd like to introduce a bit of a uh

1628
01:19:26,510 --> 01:19:22,920
challenge to what was being uh presented

1629
01:19:29,630 --> 01:19:26,520
I am of the opinion that people's

1630
01:19:32,570 --> 01:19:29,640
opinions and beliefs can be changed and

1631
01:19:36,010 --> 01:19:32,580
I base that opinion on the scientific

1632
01:19:38,870 --> 01:19:36,020
study of influence and advertising

1633
01:19:41,330 --> 01:19:38,880
promotions sales

1634
01:19:43,850 --> 01:19:41,340
there is a huge body of evidence showing

1635
01:19:46,430 --> 01:19:43,860
that humans do not prioritize

1636
01:19:48,169 --> 01:19:46,440
information in making decisions what

1637
01:19:50,450 --> 01:19:48,179
they prioritize is in-group

1638
01:19:52,970 --> 01:19:50,460
identification and the reason for that

1639
01:19:54,770 --> 01:19:52,980
is that historically ostracization from

1640
01:19:57,169 --> 01:19:54,780
your in-group was the likeliest cause of

1641
01:19:59,149 --> 01:19:57,179
death and so you prioritize maintaining

1642
01:20:00,770 --> 01:19:59,159
your participation in an in-group over

1643
01:20:02,270 --> 01:20:00,780
information content

1644
01:20:03,410 --> 01:20:02,280
and so studies that have been done in

1645
01:20:05,209 --> 01:20:03,420
University settings when they're trying

1646
01:20:08,030 --> 01:20:05,219
to teach highly religious people about

1647
01:20:09,890 --> 01:20:08,040
evolution is that you ignore the

1648
01:20:13,070 --> 01:20:09,900
information content and you focus

1649
01:20:16,070 --> 01:20:13,080
exclusively on the philosophy guiding

1650
01:20:18,530 --> 01:20:16,080
their assessment of evidence

1651
01:20:20,209 --> 01:20:18,540
and that is in my opinion the most

1652
01:20:22,729 --> 01:20:20,219
critical thing that we need to do is we

1653
01:20:24,709 --> 01:20:22,739
need to look at as people who advocate

1654
01:20:26,510 --> 01:20:24,719
for standards of evidence I believe that

1655
01:20:28,430 --> 01:20:26,520
we need to actually look at evidence

1656
01:20:29,689 --> 01:20:28,440
relating to communicating the

1657
01:20:30,649 --> 01:20:29,699
information we're trying to communicate

1658
01:20:32,450 --> 01:20:30,659
and that's been something I've been

1659
01:20:35,689 --> 01:20:32,460
focusing very heavily on

1660
01:20:36,649 --> 01:20:35,699
and so interesting I guess I'm trying to

1661
01:20:39,229 --> 01:20:36,659
get at

1662
01:20:41,209 --> 01:20:39,239
I think there's some hope here I think

1663
01:20:43,910 --> 01:20:41,219
that we actually just like we're

1664
01:20:46,669 --> 01:20:43,920
describing the these Bad actors are

1665
01:20:49,490 --> 01:20:46,679
influencing Behavior the same tools are

1666
01:20:52,070 --> 01:20:49,500
available to us to influence positive

1667
01:20:54,290 --> 01:20:52,080
behavior and you know it's sort of up to

1668
01:20:56,810 --> 01:20:54,300
us to reach out and grab those tools

1669
01:20:58,850 --> 01:20:56,820
that the wealthiest I mean I won't get

1670
01:21:00,590 --> 01:20:58,860
too far into it but the wealthiest class

1671
01:21:03,050 --> 01:21:00,600
of people are spending what is it over

1672
01:21:05,090 --> 01:21:03,060
100 billion dollars a year just in the

1673
01:21:06,890 --> 01:21:05,100
United States on marketing every year

1674
01:21:08,570 --> 01:21:06,900
because it works

1675
01:21:11,750 --> 01:21:08,580
hmm

1676
01:21:14,750 --> 01:21:11,760
I I think we could consider too that

1677
01:21:18,770 --> 01:21:14,760
there are different demographic

1678
01:21:23,510 --> 01:21:18,780
people within this demographic

1679
01:21:27,770 --> 01:21:23,520
and uh there are the extremists that

1680
01:21:29,930 --> 01:21:27,780
it's going to be very difficult to get

1681
01:21:32,330 --> 01:21:29,940
them to even

1682
01:21:34,810 --> 01:21:32,340
um dialogue

1683
01:21:40,010 --> 01:21:34,820
um in good faith

1684
01:21:44,030 --> 01:21:40,020
then there are the centrists who I have

1685
01:21:46,669 --> 01:21:44,040
had approached me and tell me

1686
01:21:49,010 --> 01:21:46,679
um that they appreciated my word that

1687
01:21:51,290 --> 01:21:49,020
that they thought that

1688
01:21:53,990 --> 01:21:51,300
um to the Stars was going to be great

1689
01:21:56,810 --> 01:21:54,000
they got they've always been interested

1690
01:22:01,189 --> 01:21:56,820
in UFOs but they really got excited

1691
01:22:04,490 --> 01:22:01,199
after 2017. it's so disappointing to see

1692
01:22:07,370 --> 01:22:04,500
it's just another scam like this is the

1693
01:22:11,450 --> 01:22:07,380
kind of things I hear but

1694
01:22:14,470 --> 01:22:11,460
they'd rather know and they appreciate

1695
01:22:18,890 --> 01:22:14,480
stuff like I do

1696
01:22:20,209 --> 01:22:18,900
so there's people like that too

1697
01:22:23,689 --> 01:22:20,219
um

1698
01:22:27,709 --> 01:22:23,699
so it it definitely depends on who we we

1699
01:22:30,649 --> 01:22:27,719
we're talking to as and and what's

1700
01:22:33,709 --> 01:22:30,659
important to us like why we would want

1701
01:22:36,649 --> 01:22:33,719
to change Minds why is that or is that

1702
01:22:40,270 --> 01:22:36,659
not important what is a person trying to

1703
01:22:44,570 --> 01:22:42,470
I think there is a distinction between

1704
01:22:45,830 --> 01:22:44,580
changing minds and being a good

1705
01:22:49,570 --> 01:22:45,840
influence like Leo was talking about

1706
01:22:51,649 --> 01:22:49,580
earlier uh stewardship in a community

1707
01:22:52,729 --> 01:22:51,659
I know I know this wasn't your intent

1708
01:22:54,649 --> 01:22:52,739
Campbell but the way you kind of

1709
01:22:57,530 --> 01:22:54,659
proposed it almost seemed manipulative

1710
01:22:59,330 --> 01:22:57,540
and um you know kind of putting a

1711
01:23:01,790 --> 01:22:59,340
narrative into people's minds when I

1712
01:23:03,950 --> 01:23:01,800
think like ideally we want to be

1713
01:23:05,090 --> 01:23:03,960
promoting critical thinking so people

1714
01:23:08,050 --> 01:23:05,100
can reflect and come to these

1715
01:23:12,590 --> 01:23:08,060
conclusions on their own I imagine right

1716
01:23:14,750 --> 01:23:12,600
absolutely my uh point would be that um

1717
01:23:16,729 --> 01:23:14,760
influence and manipulation are

1718
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:16,739
essentially the same thing just from

1719
01:23:21,649 --> 01:23:19,440
different uh perspectives right uh it's

1720
01:23:24,229 --> 01:23:21,659
like the one person's terrorist is the

1721
01:23:27,890 --> 01:23:24,239
next person's Freedom Fighter right so

1722
01:23:31,490 --> 01:23:27,900
on this subject I would simply say if we

1723
01:23:34,610 --> 01:23:31,500
can agree that some World Views are

1724
01:23:38,209 --> 01:23:34,620
more pro-social better for the world

1725
01:23:40,310 --> 01:23:38,219
than others then we have some basis to

1726
01:23:42,890 --> 01:23:40,320
argue that there are good reasons to

1727
01:23:45,950 --> 01:23:42,900
prefer some World Views over others and

1728
01:23:47,930 --> 01:23:45,960
in the interest of building a better

1729
01:23:50,330 --> 01:23:47,940
world that we all want to live in we

1730
01:23:53,330 --> 01:23:50,340
should advocate for trying together to

1731
01:23:54,950 --> 01:23:53,340
build that world through influencing

1732
01:23:57,530 --> 01:23:54,960
people to

1733
01:24:00,110 --> 01:23:57,540
believe in human rights to believe in

1734
01:24:02,030 --> 01:24:00,120
equity you need to influence somebody to

1735
01:24:03,350 --> 01:24:02,040
believe in equity and the question of

1736
01:24:05,810 --> 01:24:03,360
whether that's a good or a bad thing

1737
01:24:07,850 --> 01:24:05,820
kind of depends on who you ask I think

1738
01:24:09,590 --> 01:24:07,860
that's a good point

1739
01:24:11,270 --> 01:24:09,600
well thank you

1740
01:24:12,480 --> 01:24:11,280
oh I like it when you guys ask each

1741
01:24:15,110 --> 01:24:12,490
other hard questions

1742
01:24:19,070 --> 01:24:15,120
[Laughter]

1743
01:24:20,750 --> 01:24:19,080
and there is a a certain amount of

1744
01:24:24,970 --> 01:24:20,760
salesmanship

1745
01:24:29,630 --> 01:24:24,980
whether we identify it as such or not

1746
01:24:32,870 --> 01:24:29,640
that that goes into uh we lit we really

1747
01:24:36,169 --> 01:24:32,880
could go from virtually everything but

1748
01:24:38,030 --> 01:24:36,179
certainly to the way a website is

1749
01:24:41,209 --> 01:24:38,040
presented

1750
01:24:46,010 --> 01:24:41,219
um how I decided which shirt I was gonna

1751
01:24:49,910 --> 01:24:46,020
wear tonight all of that plays into

1752
01:24:53,750 --> 01:24:49,920
um presenting a a position and a

1753
01:24:58,729 --> 01:24:53,760
narrative that we want people to

1754
01:25:02,149 --> 01:24:58,739
um it Embrace favorably and I I very

1755
01:25:06,290 --> 01:25:02,159
much agree Campbell that

1756
01:25:11,390 --> 01:25:06,300
um we then have some our our own codes

1757
01:25:16,610 --> 01:25:11,400
of Ethics to make to decide where that

1758
01:25:17,350 --> 01:25:16,620
that reasonable salesmanship becomes

1759
01:25:21,709 --> 01:25:17,360
um

1760
01:25:26,689 --> 01:25:21,719
thoughts representation and

1761
01:25:29,510 --> 01:25:26,699
um just marketing a story to

1762
01:25:33,590 --> 01:25:29,520
um try to keep ourselves in the

1763
01:25:34,450 --> 01:25:33,600
spotlight and and and sell products and

1764
01:25:38,570 --> 01:25:34,460
services

1765
01:25:42,229 --> 01:25:38,580
and I I I'm I'm certain over the years

1766
01:25:45,950 --> 01:25:42,239
in this in this genre there have been

1767
01:25:48,530 --> 01:25:45,960
people frustrated that felt like

1768
01:25:52,370 --> 01:25:48,540
um they could have been much more

1769
01:25:56,090 --> 01:25:52,380
successful financially and with

1770
01:25:59,270 --> 01:25:56,100
followers had they had a lower standard

1771
01:26:04,610 --> 01:25:59,280
of Ethics than they did if they had gone

1772
01:26:05,209 --> 01:26:04,620
for the clicks rather than the uh

1773
01:26:08,810 --> 01:26:05,219
um

1774
01:26:10,070 --> 01:26:08,820
good research and the good material they

1775
01:26:13,970 --> 01:26:10,080
they

1776
01:26:16,729 --> 01:26:13,980
would have perhaps you know um

1777
01:26:19,970 --> 01:26:16,739
been been more successful at it

1778
01:26:22,010 --> 01:26:19,980
depending on what what the objective is

1779
01:26:25,149 --> 01:26:22,020
you know that's going to keep coming up

1780
01:26:29,689 --> 01:26:27,709
I don't know I don't remember who said

1781
01:26:32,350 --> 01:26:29,699
it but I've heard UFO stands for

1782
01:26:37,550 --> 01:26:32,360
unlimited Financial opportunity

1783
01:26:41,209 --> 01:26:37,560
yes the gift goes deep and I think

1784
01:26:43,970 --> 01:26:41,219
without coming off as patronizing I do

1785
01:26:46,250 --> 01:26:43,980
feel like it can overwhelmingly burden

1786
01:26:48,350 --> 01:26:46,260
vulnerable people as well like people

1787
01:26:50,270 --> 01:26:48,360
that are looking for answers either for

1788
01:26:51,890 --> 01:26:50,280
their own experience that maybe to some

1789
01:26:53,629 --> 01:26:51,900
degree traumatic I say that without

1790
01:26:56,090 --> 01:26:53,639
conferring judgment on people's

1791
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:56,100
experiences but who are seeking meaning

1792
01:27:01,970 --> 01:26:59,520
and answers and connection on something

1793
01:27:04,910 --> 01:27:01,980
um both as a researcher and even as an

1794
01:27:07,610 --> 01:27:04,920
experiencer who are then taken advantage

1795
01:27:09,649 --> 01:27:07,620
of by Bad actors and I feel like that is

1796
01:27:12,590 --> 01:27:09,659
fundamentally woven into the history of

1797
01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:18,050
it is ABS absolutely uh

1798
01:27:24,950 --> 01:27:21,649
there's no getting around that either

1799
01:27:28,910 --> 01:27:24,960
um when I was riding the grades what

1800
01:27:32,090 --> 01:27:28,920
kept jumping out at me was the relevance

1801
01:27:33,310 --> 01:27:32,100
and the significance of the symptoms of

1802
01:27:38,950 --> 01:27:33,320
trauma

1803
01:27:43,669 --> 01:27:38,960
compared to their lack of discussion

1804
01:27:46,870 --> 01:27:43,679
pretty much everyone involved from one

1805
01:27:51,890 --> 01:27:46,880
case to the next that I I was exploring

1806
01:27:54,709 --> 01:27:51,900
would agree that the circumstances were

1807
01:27:57,770 --> 01:27:54,719
traumatic for the witness

1808
01:28:00,649 --> 01:27:57,780
and no one was suggesting

1809
01:28:02,510 --> 01:28:00,659
treatment for trauma from a qualified

1810
01:28:08,290 --> 01:28:02,520
professional

1811
01:28:12,790 --> 01:28:08,300
uh if anything the opposite is is uh

1812
01:28:15,310 --> 01:28:12,800
conditioned and reinforced that uh

1813
01:28:19,490 --> 01:28:15,320
psychologists won't understand

1814
01:28:23,450 --> 01:28:19,500
therapists won't understand so uh hang

1815
01:28:26,870 --> 01:28:23,460
out online with with this guy that you

1816
01:28:29,570 --> 01:28:26,880
know says he's an expert

1817
01:28:31,550 --> 01:28:29,580
um at writing paperbacks and has

1818
01:28:34,910 --> 01:28:31,560
interviewed hundreds of abductees

1819
01:28:36,890 --> 01:28:34,920
because you know your PhD psychologists

1820
01:28:39,950 --> 01:28:36,900
will only make you worse

1821
01:28:44,390 --> 01:28:39,960
is woven into the narrative it

1822
01:28:46,910 --> 01:28:44,400
absolutely is and it's concerning it's

1823
01:28:50,750 --> 01:28:46,920
distressing

1824
01:28:54,830 --> 01:28:50,760
um and while those narratives come and

1825
01:28:59,570 --> 01:28:54,840
go like the abduction angle isn't what

1826
01:29:03,290 --> 01:28:59,580
it was 10 15 20 years ago it'll be back

1827
01:29:06,290 --> 01:29:03,300
this stuff always comes back and yeah

1828
01:29:06,950 --> 01:29:06,300
and you guys were were talking about

1829
01:29:13,610 --> 01:29:06,960
um

1830
01:29:16,790 --> 01:29:13,620
when did they know in the 1950s CIA uh

1831
01:29:18,189 --> 01:29:16,800
consultant and hypnosis expert Dr Martin

1832
01:29:22,370 --> 01:29:18,199
ornay

1833
01:29:23,950 --> 01:29:22,380
informed the agency that they

1834
01:29:28,189 --> 01:29:23,960
the the

1835
01:29:30,169 --> 01:29:28,199
secret weapon of hypnosis is lead the

1836
01:29:32,090 --> 01:29:30,179
subject to believe I have a secret

1837
01:29:35,629 --> 01:29:32,100
weapon

1838
01:29:39,050 --> 01:29:35,639
they knew I mean they've always known

1839
01:29:42,830 --> 01:29:39,060
the the experts have they they've always

1840
01:29:45,290 --> 01:29:42,840
known that it it was not a reliable

1841
01:29:48,830 --> 01:29:45,300
memory enhancer and that it was

1842
01:29:51,950 --> 01:29:48,840
dependent on the subject to believe they

1843
01:29:56,149 --> 01:29:51,960
were defenseless to the interrogation

1844
01:29:58,669 --> 01:29:56,159
technique and to give them permission to

1845
01:30:01,729 --> 01:29:58,679
to give them the information that you

1846
01:30:05,689 --> 01:30:01,739
wanted and uh

1847
01:30:06,729 --> 01:30:05,699
I I mean it was

1848
01:30:10,729 --> 01:30:06,739
um

1849
01:30:13,850 --> 01:30:10,739
disgusting distressing concerning to go

1850
01:30:18,830 --> 01:30:13,860
through the MK Ultra material to go

1851
01:30:22,310 --> 01:30:18,840
through the uh articles by

1852
01:30:26,030 --> 01:30:22,320
um former and current experts like Dr

1853
01:30:29,290 --> 01:30:26,040
Julia Shaw and Dr Elizabeth Loftus on

1854
01:30:32,590 --> 01:30:29,300
how to manipulate statements from people

1855
01:30:37,430 --> 01:30:32,600
because again and again they are like

1856
01:30:41,270 --> 01:30:37,440
describing what UFO investigators do you

1857
01:30:44,450 --> 01:30:41,280
know the friendly environment

1858
01:30:48,410 --> 01:30:44,460
um speculative information mixed with

1859
01:30:51,410 --> 01:30:48,420
accurate information leading questions

1860
01:30:53,510 --> 01:30:51,420
45 minutes later you've got your story

1861
01:30:57,169 --> 01:30:53,520
that you could have written before you

1862
01:31:02,149 --> 01:31:00,169
I am I'd love to use this as a

1863
01:31:05,270 --> 01:31:02,159
springboard though into another question

1864
01:31:07,729 --> 01:31:05,280
for you given there's sort of no

1865
01:31:09,950 --> 01:31:07,739
well-defined expertise or background

1866
01:31:13,370 --> 01:31:09,960
that we can look to for people in this

1867
01:31:15,350 --> 01:31:13,380
field or I would say studying this this

1868
01:31:18,590 --> 01:31:15,360
subject

1869
01:31:21,229 --> 01:31:18,600
um in your view like what are the ways

1870
01:31:23,750 --> 01:31:21,239
that this preponderance of amateur

1871
01:31:26,450 --> 01:31:23,760
researchers basically people without any

1872
01:31:28,729 --> 01:31:26,460
formal training

1873
01:31:31,850 --> 01:31:28,739
um are they a burden or a boon to

1874
01:31:34,790 --> 01:31:32,570
um

1875
01:31:39,470 --> 01:31:34,800
we have our our professional amateur

1876
01:31:46,129 --> 01:31:41,510
they

1877
01:31:48,890 --> 01:31:46,139
it depends it depends see

1878
01:31:52,629 --> 01:31:48,900
um circling back momentarily to

1879
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:52,639
weinberger's book imaginary weapons

1880
01:32:01,790 --> 01:31:56,880
she did not have to know

1881
01:32:05,629 --> 01:32:01,800
all about physics and half name bombs to

1882
01:32:11,390 --> 01:32:09,050
other people with these phds can't

1883
01:32:14,629 --> 01:32:11,400
duplicate what these guys claim are

1884
01:32:18,410 --> 01:32:14,639
happening in experiments like see you

1885
01:32:21,770 --> 01:32:18,420
can be an amateur researcher and note

1886
01:32:25,310 --> 01:32:21,780
things like that you can be an amateur

1887
01:32:28,490 --> 01:32:25,320
researcher and conduct foia requests you

1888
01:32:31,430 --> 01:32:28,500
can be an amateur researcher and ask Dr

1889
01:32:33,310 --> 01:32:31,440
Nolan does he have anything besides cool

1890
01:32:37,910 --> 01:32:33,320
stories

1891
01:32:41,450 --> 01:32:37,920
and in that way I think that

1892
01:32:44,209 --> 01:32:41,460
um amateur researchers are very much

1893
01:32:45,550 --> 01:32:44,219
more a part of the solution than the

1894
01:32:50,350 --> 01:32:45,560
problem

1895
01:32:55,810 --> 01:32:50,360
however I'd also say that there really

1896
01:32:59,810 --> 01:32:55,820
isn't and shouldn't be a quote ufology

1897
01:33:04,610 --> 01:32:59,820
unquote there there is not something

1898
01:33:06,410 --> 01:33:04,620
that that qualifies it as a specialized

1899
01:33:08,990 --> 01:33:06,420
field

1900
01:33:12,010 --> 01:33:09,000
um are you saying it should die should

1901
01:33:15,169 --> 01:33:12,020
you followed you die Jack

1902
01:33:19,689 --> 01:33:15,179
thank you apologies should die

1903
01:33:21,530 --> 01:33:19,699
I am saying it's a social phenomenon

1904
01:33:26,149 --> 01:33:21,540
that

1905
01:33:30,050 --> 01:33:26,159
um people with expertise in people

1906
01:33:33,590 --> 01:33:30,060
can can do a lot of work in it a lot of

1907
01:33:36,350 --> 01:33:33,600
significant work when it comes to actual

1908
01:33:40,090 --> 01:33:36,360
Sciences

1909
01:33:43,550 --> 01:33:40,100
I think that in my admittedly

1910
01:33:48,410 --> 01:33:43,560
unprofessional opinion I think that

1911
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:52,669
cover the basis and meteorology

1912
01:33:55,490 --> 01:33:53,770
astronomy

1913
01:33:58,310 --> 01:33:55,500
[Music]

1914
01:34:02,090 --> 01:33:58,320
you know different thing different other

1915
01:34:05,810 --> 01:34:02,100
areas of study and I I say that because

1916
01:34:09,470 --> 01:34:05,820
I I came to the opinion that when you

1917
01:34:11,990 --> 01:34:09,480
come at a UFO story looking for a UFO

1918
01:34:15,649 --> 01:34:12,000
you have already

1919
01:34:19,070 --> 01:34:15,659
aired and you know you can call it

1920
01:34:21,709 --> 01:34:19,080
anything you want but

1921
01:34:25,010 --> 01:34:21,719
um like someone that comes to mind here

1922
01:34:28,490 --> 01:34:25,020
is Paul Carr and his group at aerial

1923
01:34:31,310 --> 01:34:28,500
phenomena investigations they do good

1924
01:34:32,030 --> 01:34:31,320
work looking for

1925
01:34:35,750 --> 01:34:32,040
um

1926
01:34:39,169 --> 01:34:35,760
all of the standard answers first you

1927
01:34:41,450 --> 01:34:39,179
know you can give them your siding and

1928
01:34:46,129 --> 01:34:41,460
then they're going to look for all of

1929
01:34:49,850 --> 01:34:46,139
the built-in things that are often uh

1930
01:34:53,750 --> 01:34:49,860
known to to happen where if someone

1931
01:34:57,590 --> 01:34:53,760
comes at a UFO report

1932
01:35:00,470 --> 01:34:57,600
um and and like in their initial report

1933
01:35:04,250 --> 01:35:00,480
they're writing about the orb that the

1934
01:35:09,290 --> 01:35:04,260
witness saw and things like this I don't

1935
01:35:13,010 --> 01:35:09,300
I I don't see that as a scientific line

1936
01:35:18,110 --> 01:35:13,020
of inquiry that that can be done

1937
01:35:22,510 --> 01:35:18,120
um where like at Paul Carr and API

1938
01:35:27,410 --> 01:35:22,520
um they they do systematic

1939
01:35:30,950 --> 01:35:27,420
research and and look for things that it

1940
01:35:34,430 --> 01:35:30,960
could be and ways to falsify that it's

1941
01:35:37,010 --> 01:35:34,440
something extraordinary and the The best

1942
01:35:40,610 --> 01:35:37,020
scenario you're going to get out of

1943
01:35:45,470 --> 01:35:40,620
something like that is not sure what it

1944
01:35:48,770 --> 01:35:45,480
was so so it and that's the way to do it

1945
01:35:52,189 --> 01:35:48,780
and and I I mean

1946
01:35:55,510 --> 01:35:52,199
um I'd briefly mentioned to Leah uh

1947
01:35:59,570 --> 01:35:55,520
earlier that that I uh

1948
01:36:02,270 --> 01:35:59,580
often I'll talk about the process of my

1949
01:36:05,209 --> 01:36:02,280
personal experiences with this kind of

1950
01:36:06,950 --> 01:36:05,219
stuff but I really don't like to go into

1951
01:36:09,229 --> 01:36:06,960
the

1952
01:36:13,970 --> 01:36:09,239
um you know how big was it you know

1953
01:36:20,390 --> 01:36:17,350
we're not going to get to an explanation

1954
01:36:23,450 --> 01:36:20,400
about something that happened years ago

1955
01:36:26,629 --> 01:36:23,460
and it just opens a whole can of worms

1956
01:36:29,570 --> 01:36:26,639
of everybody's got their and I don't

1957
01:36:32,570 --> 01:36:29,580
want to hear their idea about what I saw

1958
01:36:35,270 --> 01:36:32,580
years ago you know I'm comfortable with

1959
01:36:37,610 --> 01:36:35,280
I don't know what it was and that's

1960
01:36:39,590 --> 01:36:37,620
where I'm gonna be after I listen to

1961
01:36:43,310 --> 01:36:39,600
Somebody explain to me for two hours

1962
01:36:45,530 --> 01:36:43,320
what I saw and it was a pretty rough

1963
01:36:47,030 --> 01:36:45,540
road at times getting to that

1964
01:36:51,590 --> 01:36:47,040
realization

1965
01:36:54,470 --> 01:36:51,600
and uh so that's why I don't think that

1966
01:36:59,209 --> 01:36:54,480
there is a scientific discipline looking

1967
01:37:03,410 --> 01:36:59,219
for UFOs there there there's a science

1968
01:37:06,790 --> 01:37:03,420
to studying things in the atmosphere uh

1969
01:37:10,490 --> 01:37:06,800
but once you've one when you've set out

1970
01:37:12,229 --> 01:37:10,500
to to find that uh

1971
01:37:17,110 --> 01:37:12,239
that that

1972
01:37:19,550 --> 01:37:17,120
flying saucer from a another dimension

1973
01:37:23,390 --> 01:37:19,560
you've already

1974
01:37:26,030 --> 01:37:23,400
aired from the scientific process

1975
01:37:28,430 --> 01:37:26,040
well I feel Vindicated and I also agree

1976
01:37:32,510 --> 01:37:28,440
with that final point of yours

1977
01:37:36,370 --> 01:37:32,520
thank you in this subject uh I've often

1978
01:37:40,610 --> 01:37:36,380
gotten the feeling that as science

1979
01:37:42,530 --> 01:37:40,620
progresses the subject recedes from the

1980
01:37:45,110 --> 01:37:42,540
science and that has been the case

1981
01:37:48,050 --> 01:37:45,120
throughout history with respect to the

1982
01:37:51,910 --> 01:37:48,060
Earth Sciences the like physics

1983
01:37:54,709 --> 01:37:51,920
every mystery that we encounter we apply

1984
01:37:56,570 --> 01:37:54,719
observation experimentation inside their

1985
01:37:58,850 --> 01:37:56,580
method and we end up discovering

1986
01:38:00,649 --> 01:37:58,860
ultimately at least every time in the

1987
01:38:02,750 --> 01:38:00,659
past that it's some kind of materialist

1988
01:38:07,129 --> 01:38:02,760
physical phenomenon or you know what

1989
01:38:09,110 --> 01:38:07,139
have you with me I I brought this up uh

1990
01:38:11,270 --> 01:38:09,120
regularly but I'll just very briefly say

1991
01:38:12,890 --> 01:38:11,280
I became very I was surprised when I

1992
01:38:14,270 --> 01:38:12,900
started looking at UFO stuff I had never

1993
01:38:15,530 --> 01:38:14,280
looked at this stuff before I was never

1994
01:38:17,750 --> 01:38:15,540
interested in any paranormal stuff

1995
01:38:19,970 --> 01:38:17,760
whatsoever uh looking into it though I

1996
01:38:21,590 --> 01:38:19,980
started seeing stories immediately of

1997
01:38:24,050 --> 01:38:21,600
people who call themselves experiencers

1998
01:38:26,270 --> 01:38:24,060
self-described self uh you know whatever

1999
01:38:27,890 --> 01:38:26,280
identifying and it's like people like

2000
01:38:29,750 --> 01:38:27,900
the Prasad he's hearing candies

2001
01:38:31,189 --> 01:38:29,760
entrepreneur and stuff he's raised you

2002
01:38:32,750 --> 01:38:31,199
know millions of dollars in Venture

2003
01:38:35,990 --> 01:38:32,760
Capital says he's interested in UFOs his

2004
01:38:38,090 --> 01:38:36,000
UFO or alien story he that he says made

2005
01:38:39,830 --> 01:38:38,100
him believe in UFOs in the atmosphere

2006
01:38:42,649 --> 01:38:39,840
was that he was napping in the afternoon

2007
01:38:45,110 --> 01:38:42,659
on his bed he woke up he saw an alien in

2008
01:38:46,729 --> 01:38:45,120
his room uh for a few seconds and then

2009
01:38:48,470 --> 01:38:46,739
it dematerialized

2010
01:38:50,570 --> 01:38:48,480
uh and that's what leads them to think

2011
01:38:52,250 --> 01:38:50,580
that the atmospheric uh the things in

2012
01:38:53,570 --> 01:38:52,260
the atmosphere are the same as the thing

2013
01:38:55,189 --> 01:38:53,580
you saw in his room

2014
01:38:56,090 --> 01:38:55,199
and you know he's like a doctor of

2015
01:38:57,770 --> 01:38:56,100
physics or something it's quite

2016
01:38:59,870 --> 01:38:57,780
interesting that he thinks that now I

2017
01:39:02,990 --> 01:38:59,880
personally it's personal to me because I

2018
01:39:04,729 --> 01:39:03,000
have had uh hypnagogic hallucinations

2019
01:39:07,450 --> 01:39:04,739
waking up for my whole life periodically

2020
01:39:10,129 --> 01:39:07,460
so I've seen entities in my room

2021
01:39:11,330 --> 01:39:10,139
relatively regularly when I wake up they

2022
01:39:14,209 --> 01:39:11,340
they're there for a few seconds and then

2023
01:39:16,430 --> 01:39:14,219
they disappear I never thought about it

2024
01:39:18,290 --> 01:39:16,440
for a second because when I was a child

2025
01:39:20,090 --> 01:39:18,300
I went onto the internet and looked up

2026
01:39:21,350 --> 01:39:20,100
what was happening and I just dismissed

2027
01:39:23,990 --> 01:39:21,360
it entirely never thought about it again

2028
01:39:27,410 --> 01:39:24,000
until I started looking at UFO stuff

2029
01:39:30,290 --> 01:39:27,420
so you know if there was no evidence

2030
01:39:32,149 --> 01:39:30,300
about brain function available to me it

2031
01:39:34,310 --> 01:39:32,159
would be very easy for me to believe

2032
01:39:36,709 --> 01:39:34,320
fundamentally 200 years ago that I was

2033
01:39:39,709 --> 01:39:36,719
in contact with something

2034
01:39:41,810 --> 01:39:39,719
to what extent given that ball lightning

2035
01:39:43,850 --> 01:39:41,820
has been verified to exist as of 2014

2036
01:39:45,350 --> 01:39:43,860
physical review letters uh they got

2037
01:39:48,410 --> 01:39:45,360
spectral analysis on it it was over a

2038
01:39:49,129 --> 01:39:48,420
meter wide uh yeah wait let's see the

2039
01:39:52,189 --> 01:39:49,139
thing

2040
01:39:54,290 --> 01:39:52,199
oh that's from the UK report that's not

2041
01:39:55,810 --> 01:39:54,300
the same thing I can't just whip that at

2042
01:39:58,430 --> 01:39:55,820
randomly sorry

2043
01:39:59,870 --> 01:39:58,440
but uh it this is something I've been

2044
01:40:04,250 --> 01:39:59,880
thinking about in

2045
01:40:07,310 --> 01:40:04,260
in a reality where large I don't want to

2046
01:40:10,189 --> 01:40:07,320
say the word but large orbs of light are

2047
01:40:11,930 --> 01:40:10,199
proven to exist and fly around in

2048
01:40:15,050 --> 01:40:11,940
Earth's atmosphere in the world where

2049
01:40:17,090 --> 01:40:15,060
that has been proven is entirely

2050
01:40:19,129 --> 01:40:17,100
different to me than the world where

2051
01:40:21,890 --> 01:40:19,139
that does not exist

2052
01:40:24,470 --> 01:40:21,900
and so it leads me to think to what

2053
01:40:26,270 --> 01:40:24,480
extent given that when you look into the

2054
01:40:28,490 --> 01:40:26,280
UK Ministry of Defense historical

2055
01:40:30,169 --> 01:40:28,500
reconci records Air Force records all of

2056
01:40:31,850 --> 01:40:30,179
them have internal memos and reports

2057
01:40:33,410 --> 01:40:31,860
directed at their superiors saying that

2058
01:40:34,850 --> 01:40:33,420
they think that these are atmospheric

2059
01:40:36,470 --> 01:40:34,860
phenomena they're an awful form of

2060
01:40:37,910 --> 01:40:36,480
atmospheric plasma

2061
01:40:39,709 --> 01:40:37,920
they think the light ball items they

2062
01:40:41,149 --> 01:40:39,719
don't quite know what they are that

2063
01:40:42,709 --> 01:40:41,159
leads me to think this is some kind of

2064
01:40:44,030 --> 01:40:42,719
physical thing going on here that

2065
01:40:45,850 --> 01:40:44,040
actually is going to come out eventually

2066
01:40:48,050 --> 01:40:45,860
I don't know that but that's why

2067
01:40:50,390 --> 01:40:48,060
interpretation to what extent do you

2068
01:40:53,090 --> 01:40:50,400
think that this whole thing actually has

2069
01:40:55,370 --> 01:40:53,100
some possibility through these different

2070
01:40:57,229 --> 01:40:55,380
channels the experiencers with you know

2071
01:40:58,850 --> 01:40:57,239
brain science like I'm describing sort

2072
01:41:00,470 --> 01:40:58,860
of the atmospheric stuff like Sarah

2073
01:41:02,450 --> 01:41:00,480
skulls actually wrote scientific article

2074
01:41:04,250 --> 01:41:02,460
uh American article recently saying this

2075
01:41:05,689 --> 01:41:04,260
is probably about atmospheric science

2076
01:41:06,770 --> 01:41:05,699
what do you think is going on there do

2077
01:41:08,570 --> 01:41:06,780
you think that we're actually going to

2078
01:41:09,770 --> 01:41:08,580
maybe one day get a resolution of this

2079
01:41:11,149 --> 01:41:09,780
whole thing or do you think that's just

2080
01:41:14,209 --> 01:41:11,159
no chance

2081
01:41:18,890 --> 01:41:14,219
I don't think it'll be a resolution to

2082
01:41:21,050 --> 01:41:18,900
the whole thing but I I think that that

2083
01:41:27,110 --> 01:41:24,050
I I would go as far as to say

2084
01:41:30,649 --> 01:41:27,120
um I'm pretty convinced that accounts

2085
01:41:31,729 --> 01:41:30,659
for some reports uh

2086
01:41:34,370 --> 01:41:31,739
um

2087
01:41:37,970 --> 01:41:34,380
I I've long thought that the Brown

2088
01:41:38,810 --> 01:41:37,980
Mountain Lights were interesting

2089
01:41:42,109 --> 01:41:38,820
um

2090
01:41:46,189 --> 01:41:42,119
the Hess darling lights almost certainly

2091
01:41:51,050 --> 01:41:46,199
indicate some type of phenomena that

2092
01:41:53,390 --> 01:41:51,060
that is visible in that area from what I

2093
01:41:57,050 --> 01:41:53,400
know about it

2094
01:41:59,510 --> 01:41:57,060
um I I think that there there seems to

2095
01:42:03,550 --> 01:41:59,520
be growing

2096
01:42:06,950 --> 01:42:03,560
um interest in uh

2097
01:42:10,609 --> 01:42:06,960
lights of some type related to

2098
01:42:14,270 --> 01:42:10,619
earthquakes same seems to be

2099
01:42:15,649 --> 01:42:14,280
um an increasing possibility

2100
01:42:19,310 --> 01:42:15,659
so

2101
01:42:22,430 --> 01:42:19,320
um no I don't think by any means that

2102
01:42:25,070 --> 01:42:22,440
everything that that's to be known is

2103
01:42:28,790 --> 01:42:25,080
already in books somewhere I I think

2104
01:42:32,390 --> 01:42:28,800
there's plenty yet to be discovered it's

2105
01:42:36,430 --> 01:42:32,400
just I I think you'll all agree it's

2106
01:42:40,370 --> 01:42:36,440
very care it's very important to proceed

2107
01:42:44,629 --> 01:42:40,380
systematically and carefully and weigh

2108
01:42:49,250 --> 01:42:44,639
our beliefs heavily you know weigh the

2109
01:42:52,490 --> 01:42:49,260
information heavily that that people

2110
01:42:56,689 --> 01:42:52,500
um will try to misrepresent this

2111
01:42:58,790 --> 01:42:56,699
evolving research to as something it's

2112
01:43:02,410 --> 01:42:58,800
not and

2113
01:43:06,830 --> 01:43:02,420
um traditionally as well The Sensational

2114
01:43:09,590 --> 01:43:06,840
stories get get you know more more get

2115
01:43:11,290 --> 01:43:09,600
the legs you know they're the ones that

2116
01:43:14,930 --> 01:43:11,300
go around

2117
01:43:18,410 --> 01:43:14,940
and we we tend to

2118
01:43:22,490 --> 01:43:18,420
um like that that about ball lightning

2119
01:43:27,050 --> 01:43:22,500
alone should be more common knowledge in

2120
01:43:29,870 --> 01:43:27,060
this community than it is you know but I

2121
01:43:33,590 --> 01:43:29,880
I was at a mufon meeting once where a

2122
01:43:37,970 --> 01:43:33,600
man left in Anger during a presentation

2123
01:43:43,129 --> 01:43:37,980
about identifiable flying objects

2124
01:43:45,470 --> 01:43:43,139
and I mean he just he was clear not what

2125
01:43:48,109 --> 01:43:45,480
I came here to hear about

2126
01:43:52,609 --> 01:43:48,119
you know I I want to know about what's

2127
01:43:54,290 --> 01:43:52,619
not identifiable left in a cuss you know

2128
01:43:57,950 --> 01:43:54,300
um and

2129
01:44:01,910 --> 01:43:57,960
I don't think that's a peculiar response

2130
01:44:07,430 --> 01:44:01,920
from a certain one of those demographics

2131
01:44:10,430 --> 01:44:08,689
you know someone

2132
01:44:12,290 --> 01:44:10,440
um actually asked me last episode to

2133
01:44:14,209 --> 01:44:12,300
speculate but Campbell you're convincing

2134
01:44:15,950 --> 01:44:14,219
me more and more to really consider that

2135
01:44:19,310 --> 01:44:15,960
as an option for the case I'm looking

2136
01:44:22,250 --> 01:44:19,320
into it does really fit uh

2137
01:44:24,470 --> 01:44:22,260
a lot of the descriptions so

2138
01:44:26,450 --> 01:44:24,480
who knows I'm leaning more towards that

2139
01:44:28,550 --> 01:44:26,460
myself just obviously uh I can't

2140
01:44:31,430 --> 01:44:28,560
conclusively say that yet but

2141
01:44:33,169 --> 01:44:31,440
the thing that I found so funny is the

2142
01:44:35,750 --> 01:44:33,179
the documents inside the government it's

2143
01:44:38,330 --> 01:44:35,760
like so we can say like the documents

2144
01:44:40,250 --> 01:44:38,340
could be wrong in their conclusions and

2145
01:44:43,310 --> 01:44:40,260
they presented this information to the

2146
01:44:45,290 --> 01:44:43,320
superiors believing that it was true but

2147
01:44:46,970 --> 01:44:45,300
just the fact for example just the UK

2148
01:44:49,010 --> 01:44:46,980
Ministry of Defense document 2000 that

2149
01:44:50,950 --> 01:44:49,020
we know that they briefed their top

2150
01:44:53,510 --> 01:44:50,960
leadership that UFOs in their words

2151
01:44:56,090 --> 01:44:53,520
indisputably exist have all of the

2152
01:44:58,189 --> 01:44:56,100
features of traditional UFOs and are a

2153
01:44:59,270 --> 01:44:58,199
form of Novel atmospheric plasma like we

2154
01:45:00,709 --> 01:44:59,280
know that all of the top leadership

2155
01:45:03,109 --> 01:45:00,719
there was told that

2156
01:45:04,850 --> 01:45:03,119
and like it that is a conspiracy that's

2157
01:45:06,709 --> 01:45:04,860
a proven conspiracy based on the

2158
01:45:08,030 --> 01:45:06,719
guardian BBC News and the wired

2159
01:45:10,310 --> 01:45:08,040
reporting

2160
01:45:12,290 --> 01:45:10,320
so it's like I guess we've been touching

2161
01:45:15,590 --> 01:45:12,300
on these things that this subject is

2162
01:45:19,129 --> 01:45:15,600
it's so mixed together with junk and

2163
01:45:22,669 --> 01:45:19,139
then there's so much like real stuff and

2164
01:45:25,550 --> 01:45:22,679
it it begs the question because when you

2165
01:45:27,890 --> 01:45:25,560
study propaganda you see that one of the

2166
01:45:29,450 --> 01:45:27,900
main premises is to clock information

2167
01:45:31,870 --> 01:45:29,460
Channels with misinformation

2168
01:45:34,430 --> 01:45:31,880
disinformation when you're seeking to

2169
01:45:35,870 --> 01:45:34,440
misdirect people from things you know

2170
01:45:37,310 --> 01:45:35,880
you don't want them to look at

2171
01:45:40,010 --> 01:45:37,320
uh Jack

2172
01:45:42,590 --> 01:45:40,020
so what to what extent do you think

2173
01:45:45,890 --> 01:45:42,600
there's an active

2174
01:45:47,270 --> 01:45:45,900
like intention from these governments to

2175
01:45:49,010 --> 01:45:47,280
actually misdirect people and what what

2176
01:45:53,209 --> 01:45:49,020
would you be able to Define as like the

2177
01:45:55,729 --> 01:45:53,219
core driver for why there is such a

2178
01:45:57,109 --> 01:45:55,739
challenge in understanding the reason

2179
01:45:59,689 --> 01:45:57,119
for the way the government communicates

2180
01:46:01,370 --> 01:45:59,699
on the subject

2181
01:46:05,030 --> 01:46:01,380
I don't have

2182
01:46:09,169 --> 01:46:05,040
any reason to particularly believe that

2183
01:46:14,750 --> 01:46:09,179
the public is the targeted people to be

2184
01:46:18,169 --> 01:46:14,760
misinformed other than to the extent

2185
01:46:21,350 --> 01:46:18,179
um and oddly enough John Alexander was

2186
01:46:23,689 --> 01:46:21,360
who was quoted on this and I

2187
01:46:26,090 --> 01:46:23,699
um piece at the uh

2188
01:46:27,770 --> 01:46:26,100
might have been at The Intercept I don't

2189
01:46:30,410 --> 01:46:27,780
remember

2190
01:46:33,109 --> 01:46:30,420
um but it's in the grades had been

2191
01:46:35,330 --> 01:46:33,119
framed it was because I thought the

2192
01:46:37,669 --> 01:46:35,340
quote was interesting as well as that it

2193
01:46:41,090 --> 01:46:37,679
came from Colonel Alexander

2194
01:46:42,729 --> 01:46:41,100
but that basically

2195
01:46:46,910 --> 01:46:42,739
um

2196
01:46:51,050 --> 01:46:46,920
propaganda is designed to affect the

2197
01:46:55,970 --> 01:46:51,060
rulers of a foreign country the rulers

2198
01:46:57,729 --> 01:46:55,980
of our country and the citizens to lead

2199
01:47:03,649 --> 01:46:57,739
them to believe

2200
01:47:06,350 --> 01:47:03,659
that the cost is worth The Treasure of

2201
01:47:10,609 --> 01:47:06,360
of what the government is doing what it

2202
01:47:15,229 --> 01:47:10,619
costs you and money and lives in

2203
01:47:19,910 --> 01:47:15,239
sacrifice is worth it so in that regard

2204
01:47:23,330 --> 01:47:19,920
I think that that the public is is uh

2205
01:47:25,850 --> 01:47:23,340
targeted for information Warfare defense

2206
01:47:27,109 --> 01:47:25,860
spending uh

2207
01:47:29,629 --> 01:47:27,119
um

2208
01:47:32,750 --> 01:47:29,639
the the public will be more on board

2209
01:47:35,510 --> 01:47:32,760
with upping the defense budget if they

2210
01:47:38,090 --> 01:47:35,520
think information about UFOs might be

2211
01:47:39,890 --> 01:47:38,100
forthcoming for instance something along

2212
01:47:42,830 --> 01:47:39,900
those lines

2213
01:47:46,729 --> 01:47:42,840
but I think most of it

2214
01:47:51,470 --> 01:47:46,739
is much more convoluted than that

2215
01:48:01,810 --> 01:47:56,629
I don't I think that it's rare that a

2216
01:48:06,530 --> 01:48:01,820
UFO hoax or a UFO scam is the intent

2217
01:48:09,169 --> 01:48:06,540
it's used for other purposes

2218
01:48:10,250 --> 01:48:09,179
um like off the top of my head I would

2219
01:48:13,370 --> 01:48:10,260
say

2220
01:48:16,250 --> 01:48:13,380
for instance to

2221
01:48:17,629 --> 01:48:16,260
um see who's interested in it you know

2222
01:48:21,050 --> 01:48:17,639
like

2223
01:48:25,070 --> 01:48:21,060
um if you say that there was uh this

2224
01:48:29,270 --> 01:48:25,080
Sensational craft flying near

2225
01:48:32,090 --> 01:48:29,280
um an Air Force Base in Pensacola

2226
01:48:35,209 --> 01:48:32,100
um then the Air Force Base can track the

2227
01:48:38,270 --> 01:48:35,219
IP addresses of who seems interested in

2228
01:48:42,890 --> 01:48:38,280
getting the report about the description

2229
01:48:45,410 --> 01:48:42,900
of of that aircraft things like that

2230
01:48:48,169 --> 01:48:45,420
um I I think there was a point in time

2231
01:48:52,490 --> 01:48:48,179
when the internet was a little more

2232
01:48:56,750 --> 01:48:52,500
crude that some of the sightings

2233
01:48:59,810 --> 01:48:56,760
um databases like mufons or reports and

2234
01:49:01,669 --> 01:48:59,820
um new fork and some places like that I

2235
01:49:05,530 --> 01:49:01,679
think may have been monitored by

2236
01:49:08,750 --> 01:49:05,540
intelligence agencies to see who

2237
01:49:11,270 --> 01:49:08,760
obsessively is looking at these reports

2238
01:49:14,649 --> 01:49:11,280
the kinds of reports they're monitoring

2239
01:49:17,330 --> 01:49:14,659
I'm suspecting them to be

2240
01:49:20,149 --> 01:49:17,340
adversaries and Bad actors that wanted

2241
01:49:23,570 --> 01:49:20,159
to know descriptions of exotic

2242
01:49:25,850 --> 01:49:23,580
classified aircraft things like that I

2243
01:49:27,890 --> 01:49:25,860
think that those are common reasons for

2244
01:49:28,609 --> 01:49:27,900
the stories

2245
01:49:31,850 --> 01:49:28,619
um

2246
01:49:34,669 --> 01:49:31,860
the the topic in general you know would

2247
01:49:38,109 --> 01:49:34,679
prompt me to ask people if we're to

2248
01:49:41,810 --> 01:49:38,119
believe that Luis Elizondo had

2249
01:49:45,189 --> 01:49:41,820
responsibilities in in some UFO program

2250
01:49:47,390 --> 01:49:45,199
much less ran at does a

2251
01:49:50,510 --> 01:49:47,400
counter-intelligence specialist seem

2252
01:49:55,790 --> 01:49:50,520
like a reasonable idea or would you have

2253
01:50:00,410 --> 01:49:55,800
gone with a scientist with expertise and

2254
01:50:05,930 --> 01:50:01,250
um

2255
01:50:10,189 --> 01:50:05,940
I I mean I I think that

2256
01:50:12,830 --> 01:50:10,199
that and that goes back as well to to

2257
01:50:16,370 --> 01:50:12,840
the very Beginnings in the mid 20th

2258
01:50:22,070 --> 01:50:16,380
century that uh

2259
01:50:26,330 --> 01:50:22,080
I and and Wayward signs I I documented a

2260
01:50:31,970 --> 01:50:26,340
uh CIA career officer

2261
01:50:34,609 --> 01:50:31,980
um named Amos Colonel Amos and he uh he

2262
01:50:36,770 --> 01:50:34,619
he was involved in just the craziest

2263
01:50:41,209 --> 01:50:36,780
stuff that

2264
01:50:43,850 --> 01:50:41,219
um I have yet to get to the exact point

2265
01:50:46,090 --> 01:50:43,860
of what he was doing but there's

2266
01:50:50,229 --> 01:50:46,100
certainly in enough

2267
01:50:53,870 --> 01:50:50,239
uh just stuffy was throwing on the wall

2268
01:50:57,770 --> 01:50:53,880
that that makes it reasonably apparent

2269
01:51:00,229 --> 01:50:57,780
he he was doing things around the UFO

2270
01:51:05,870 --> 01:51:00,239
topic for instance

2271
01:51:08,270 --> 01:51:05,880
he uh career CIA officer called up the

2272
01:51:11,450 --> 01:51:08,280
got in touch with the Air Force office

2273
01:51:16,729 --> 01:51:11,460
of special investigations and gave them

2274
01:51:19,510 --> 01:51:16,739
a heads up this was early 1950s about a

2275
01:51:22,790 --> 01:51:19,520
supposed UFO case

2276
01:51:27,709 --> 01:51:22,800
that he thought you know somebody would

2277
01:51:30,950 --> 01:51:27,719
want to investigate now if you you know

2278
01:51:34,790 --> 01:51:30,960
you start to need maybe a little back

2279
01:51:37,490 --> 01:51:34,800
story on these guys that we might kind

2280
01:51:40,850 --> 01:51:37,500
of wonder in the first place why the CIA

2281
01:51:43,310 --> 01:51:40,860
would care if OSI is looking into

2282
01:51:45,189 --> 01:51:43,320
something you know

2283
01:51:49,070 --> 01:51:45,199
um why this

2284
01:51:51,050 --> 01:51:49,080
long-term career officer served in the

2285
01:51:54,530 --> 01:51:51,060
European theater

2286
01:52:00,229 --> 01:51:54,540
um all over the world but now he's in DC

2287
01:52:04,010 --> 01:52:00,239
and he decides to give OSI a heads up on

2288
01:52:07,430 --> 01:52:04,020
a UFO report that he doesn't even know

2289
01:52:09,830 --> 01:52:07,440
the people just somebody told him that's

2290
01:52:14,090 --> 01:52:09,840
his story somebody told him about some

2291
01:52:17,030 --> 01:52:14,100
people and I got this OSI report and

2292
01:52:20,570 --> 01:52:17,040
this guy chases down the leads that

2293
01:52:23,930 --> 01:52:20,580
evaporate and a couple of the witnesses

2294
01:52:25,669 --> 01:52:23,940
he couldn't confirm ever existed and

2295
01:52:30,070 --> 01:52:25,679
then another one of the witnesses

2296
01:52:33,709 --> 01:52:30,080
eventually cop to it was a hoax and

2297
01:52:36,709 --> 01:52:33,719
uh you're just left kind of wondering

2298
01:52:41,450 --> 01:52:36,719
not only what was it all about but why

2299
01:52:45,350 --> 01:52:41,460
did a CIA officer send an OSI agent out

2300
01:52:48,590 --> 01:52:45,360
on this and I kind of defer to the work

2301
01:52:51,109 --> 01:52:48,600
of James carrion and things like that he

2302
01:52:54,229 --> 01:52:51,119
had some interesting ideas that I think

2303
01:52:57,410 --> 01:52:54,239
are on point about possibly code

2304
01:53:01,669 --> 01:52:57,420
breaking and things like that and and

2305
01:53:04,970 --> 01:53:01,679
looking for spy rings that I just found

2306
01:53:08,330 --> 01:53:04,980
it really curious that

2307
01:53:11,030 --> 01:53:08,340
um The OSI officer even said that a

2308
01:53:14,689 --> 01:53:11,040
couple of the alleged witness names that

2309
01:53:17,450 --> 01:53:14,699
the the that Colonel Amos gave him

2310
01:53:20,209 --> 01:53:17,460
and Colonel Amos gave him the name of

2311
01:53:24,169 --> 01:53:20,219
the man he originally got the story from

2312
01:53:28,010 --> 01:53:24,179
when the OSI officer asked

2313
01:53:31,490 --> 01:53:28,020
the original guy about the witnesses

2314
01:53:33,770 --> 01:53:31,500
that didn't exist the original guy

2315
01:53:36,250 --> 01:53:33,780
claimed he didn't know where Amos got

2316
01:53:39,290 --> 01:53:36,260
those names either so like nobody's even

2317
01:53:43,790 --> 01:53:39,300
taking responsibility for where these

2318
01:53:45,609 --> 01:53:43,800
names came from that the CIA gave OSI

2319
01:53:49,970 --> 01:53:45,619
and so

2320
01:53:51,010 --> 01:53:49,980
I found that curious that

2321
01:53:53,750 --> 01:53:51,020
um

2322
01:53:56,689 --> 01:53:53,760
essentially some of carrion's work

2323
01:53:58,850 --> 01:53:56,699
amounts to the the idea of if you threw

2324
01:54:01,850 --> 01:53:58,860
a Dye pack in a sinkhole and you see

2325
01:54:05,689 --> 01:54:01,860
where the dye comes out that perhaps

2326
01:54:08,750 --> 01:54:05,699
Colonel Amos was looking to see is is

2327
01:54:12,410 --> 01:54:08,760
this OS guy trustworthy is he

2328
01:54:15,050 --> 01:54:12,420
compromised what did they find out Amos

2329
01:54:18,649 --> 01:54:15,060
was compromised when these names turned

2330
01:54:23,030 --> 01:54:18,659
up I don't know but I think that stories

2331
01:54:25,189 --> 01:54:23,040
like this are evidence enough that their

2332
01:54:30,950 --> 01:54:25,199
Shenanigans with the intelligence

2333
01:54:30,960 --> 01:54:33,590
foreign

2334
01:54:38,930 --> 01:54:36,410
did we have any um audience questions

2335
01:54:41,870 --> 01:54:38,940
that we want to get in

2336
01:54:43,510 --> 01:54:41,880
no I did start a couple

2337
01:54:46,010 --> 01:54:43,520
um

2338
01:54:48,169 --> 01:54:46,020
so one of the questions we got from

2339
01:54:50,209 --> 01:54:48,179
Vancouver guy Jeff

2340
01:54:52,550 --> 01:54:50,219
um he's curious about Jack's thoughts on

2341
01:54:56,209 --> 01:54:52,560
Gary Beckham and the Star Stream

2342
01:54:57,770 --> 01:54:56,219
research stuff on UFOs and Spas I feel

2343
01:54:59,510 --> 01:54:57,780
like I just read a bunch of words but I

2344
01:55:02,109 --> 01:54:59,520
have no idea what they mean so hopefully

2345
01:55:09,970 --> 01:55:05,629
and I have not been in touch with Mr

2346
01:55:13,250 --> 01:55:09,980
Beckham in many years now but um he did

2347
01:55:13,990 --> 01:55:13,260
Back In The Message Board days

2348
01:55:20,270 --> 01:55:14,000
um

2349
01:55:23,629 --> 01:55:20,280
places that that was Beckham's stomping

2350
01:55:26,570 --> 01:55:23,639
grounds and I think that his work is

2351
01:55:28,490 --> 01:55:26,580
interesting he he did a lot of work

2352
01:55:32,169 --> 01:55:28,500
around

2353
01:55:37,189 --> 01:55:32,179
um he he saw correlations between

2354
01:55:39,169 --> 01:55:37,199
Stargate and MK Ultra and uh some of the

2355
01:55:42,050 --> 01:55:39,179
narratives that were going into the

2356
01:55:42,830 --> 01:55:42,060
public domain and

2357
01:55:46,250 --> 01:55:42,840
um

2358
01:55:49,129 --> 01:55:46,260
I uh I found it interesting I I thought

2359
01:55:53,510 --> 01:55:49,139
I didn't agree with all of his takes but

2360
01:55:56,570 --> 01:55:53,520
I think that he presented some valuable

2361
01:56:01,370 --> 01:55:56,580
perspectives and some some instances

2362
01:56:03,950 --> 01:56:01,380
that that were valid excuse me

2363
01:56:07,250 --> 01:56:03,960
um one other if I make and I'll try to

2364
01:56:10,550 --> 01:56:07,260
make this one breathe uh instance that I

2365
01:56:12,470 --> 01:56:10,560
think UFOs may play roles like when we

2366
01:56:15,169 --> 01:56:12,480
hear about that an intelligence agency

2367
01:56:17,090 --> 01:56:15,179
went and got photos or interviewed a

2368
01:56:21,050 --> 01:56:17,100
witness or something

2369
01:56:25,070 --> 01:56:21,060
I came across an FBI file one time while

2370
01:56:31,370 --> 01:56:25,080
working on semi-related stuff

2371
01:56:34,010 --> 01:56:31,380
in which uh an FBI agent informed the

2372
01:56:37,310 --> 01:56:34,020
director informed Hoover that if they

2373
01:56:40,129 --> 01:56:37,320
wanted him to he would approach this

2374
01:56:44,209 --> 01:56:40,139
person they had under surveillance

2375
01:56:48,229 --> 01:56:44,219
under the guise of there had been a car

2376
01:56:50,450 --> 01:56:48,239
wreck in the vicinity he was in and just

2377
01:56:53,270 --> 01:56:50,460
asked him did you see anything about

2378
01:56:55,430 --> 01:56:53,280
this car wreck and and start talking to

2379
01:56:58,129 --> 01:56:55,440
him about that

2380
01:57:00,709 --> 01:56:58,139
uh because what they really wanted to

2381
01:57:04,370 --> 01:57:00,719
know was this man was under surveillance

2382
01:57:06,350 --> 01:57:04,380
and he was a a United States General and

2383
01:57:08,209 --> 01:57:06,360
he had been with some people that got

2384
01:57:10,010 --> 01:57:08,219
out of his car and went in the Russian

2385
01:57:12,589 --> 01:57:10,020
Embassy and they wanted to know who

2386
01:57:17,270 --> 01:57:12,599
these people were they they did not have

2387
01:57:20,030 --> 01:57:17,280
them identified so one of the ideas was

2388
01:57:22,729 --> 01:57:20,040
that the FBI would claim there was a car

2389
01:57:26,030 --> 01:57:22,739
wreck in that vicinity and somebody said

2390
01:57:29,149 --> 01:57:26,040
you might have been around and and just

2391
01:57:30,950 --> 01:57:29,159
start talking and that should lead to

2392
01:57:34,430 --> 01:57:30,960
who were you with and what were you

2393
01:57:36,890 --> 01:57:34,440
doing without having to completely blow

2394
01:57:39,350 --> 01:57:36,900
their cover that they were investigating

2395
01:57:43,070 --> 01:57:39,360
this man and his the people he was

2396
01:57:46,729 --> 01:57:43,080
hanging out with and when I read that I

2397
01:57:49,669 --> 01:57:46,739
thought I could so see UFO Stories being

2398
01:57:53,570 --> 01:57:49,679
used for that somebody down the block

2399
01:57:56,990 --> 01:57:53,580
said a triangle craft about 400 feet

2400
01:58:00,109 --> 01:57:57,000
there you see anything last night no not

2401
01:58:02,209 --> 01:58:00,119
a thing what were you doing anybody here

2402
01:58:04,910 --> 01:58:02,219
with you that might have seen anything

2403
01:58:07,010 --> 01:58:04,920
what was their name I could completely

2404
01:58:09,169 --> 01:58:07,020
see that going on

2405
01:58:12,649 --> 01:58:09,179
that's really interesting

2406
01:58:14,930 --> 01:58:12,659
I thought so wonderful

2407
01:58:16,310 --> 01:58:14,940
look we are just getting up to the top

2408
01:58:18,709 --> 01:58:16,320
of the hour

2409
01:58:20,450 --> 01:58:18,719
um Jack Campbell Nick you guys thank you

2410
01:58:22,970 --> 01:58:20,460
so much for sticking around past our

2411
01:58:24,770 --> 01:58:22,980
initial 90 minute uh

2412
01:58:26,870 --> 01:58:24,780
go here

2413
01:58:28,669 --> 01:58:26,880
um before we sign off for the night Jack

2414
01:58:30,169 --> 01:58:28,679
what are you working on and where can we

2415
01:58:33,350 --> 01:58:30,179
find you

2416
01:58:37,209 --> 01:58:33,360
you can find me most of the time these

2417
01:58:39,709 --> 01:58:37,219
days at expanding

2418
01:58:42,669 --> 01:58:39,719
frontiersresearch.org that's where I'm

2419
01:58:46,370 --> 01:58:42,679
doing most of my blogging these days

2420
01:58:49,550 --> 01:58:46,380
uh probably will post this video there

2421
01:58:53,089 --> 01:58:49,560
as well we have a video section that

2422
01:58:58,010 --> 01:58:53,099
we're adding to and and updating

2423
01:59:00,830 --> 01:58:58,020
uh I am working on more foia requests I

2424
01:59:03,850 --> 01:59:00,840
have uh some leads out about some

2425
01:59:06,070 --> 01:59:03,860
stories we've been working on as well

2426
01:59:08,209 --> 01:59:06,080
and uh

2427
01:59:10,430 --> 01:59:08,219
lots of things

2428
01:59:14,570 --> 01:59:10,440
um over time that's one of the great

2429
01:59:18,050 --> 01:59:14,580
things about foia it it often is not

2430
01:59:21,890 --> 01:59:18,060
particularly useful for current things

2431
01:59:24,950 --> 01:59:21,900
but it will give you a a batch of

2432
01:59:27,770 --> 01:59:24,960
documents um two or three years from now

2433
01:59:30,169 --> 01:59:27,780
that you look at and go wow this I'm

2434
01:59:33,169 --> 01:59:30,179
really glad I ordered this I'd almost

2435
01:59:34,930 --> 01:59:33,179
forgotten and it's like backing a really

2436
01:59:38,390 --> 01:59:34,940
shitty Kickstarter

2437
01:59:41,570 --> 01:59:38,400
yeah yeah it's your tax money

2438
01:59:43,790 --> 01:59:41,580
and it's really frustrating at first

2439
01:59:45,790 --> 01:59:43,800
because like all you're doing is

2440
01:59:52,070 --> 01:59:45,800
submitting

2441
01:59:55,070 --> 01:59:52,080
just always telling you that's too broad

2442
01:59:57,350 --> 01:59:55,080
you've got to limit the scope of that

2443
02:00:00,770 --> 01:59:57,360
and you know we don't have anything like

2444
02:00:04,370 --> 02:00:00,780
that ask another agency but it kind of

2445
02:00:07,910 --> 02:00:04,380
start to get the hang of it it's still

2446
02:00:11,390 --> 02:00:07,920
kind of frustrating because it takes a

2447
02:00:14,510 --> 02:00:11,400
long time but then after a long time

2448
02:00:16,910 --> 02:00:14,520
after your first couple years then you

2449
02:00:20,689 --> 02:00:16,920
st and you keep doing it steady like

2450
02:00:22,669 --> 02:00:20,699
every week submit more requests after a

2451
02:00:27,410 --> 02:00:22,679
couple years you start getting stuff

2452
02:00:31,129 --> 02:00:27,420
pretty much regularly and uh

2453
02:00:33,050 --> 02:00:31,139
then it it will be interesting and you

2454
02:00:36,229 --> 02:00:33,060
know I you know again I'll mention James

2455
02:00:39,830 --> 02:00:36,239
carry on that something I felt I learned

2456
02:00:45,169 --> 02:00:39,840
from him he focused on a specific time

2457
02:00:48,229 --> 02:00:45,179
frame like the 1946 1947 time frame and

2458
02:00:50,089 --> 02:00:48,239
and he started researching that I think

2459
02:00:54,050 --> 02:00:50,099
there's something to be said for that

2460
02:00:56,390 --> 02:00:54,060
just UFOs is too broad

2461
02:00:59,330 --> 02:00:56,400
um you know the Cold War the

2462
02:01:01,910 --> 02:00:59,340
intelligence Community the there's just

2463
02:01:05,209 --> 02:01:01,920
too much there and you'll get your chain

2464
02:01:07,430 --> 02:01:05,219
yanked all the time when when some spook

2465
02:01:10,970 --> 02:01:07,440
jumps on YouTube you've got a whole

2466
02:01:13,070 --> 02:01:10,980
different story all of a sudden so

2467
02:01:16,550 --> 02:01:13,080
there's something to be said for going

2468
02:01:20,570 --> 02:01:16,560
after a particular 80s story or 90s

2469
02:01:23,149 --> 02:01:20,580
story and and then when when you get the

2470
02:01:24,350 --> 02:01:23,159
documents in two or three years

2471
02:01:31,390 --> 02:01:24,360
the

2472
02:01:31,400 --> 02:01:37,609
he is

2473
02:01:42,290 --> 02:01:41,089
oh Jack we made it two whole Hours come

2474
02:01:46,370 --> 02:01:42,300
on internet

2475
02:01:51,530 --> 02:01:48,350
hello hello

2476
02:01:52,629 --> 02:01:51,540
there he is yes am I there you are

2477
02:01:57,550 --> 02:01:52,639
yep

2478
02:02:00,350 --> 02:01:57,560
loaded question yeah yeah yes

2479
02:02:02,750 --> 02:02:00,360
but yeah like I heard most of that yeah

2480
02:02:05,570 --> 02:02:02,760
they kept pulling the rug out from under

2481
02:02:08,689 --> 02:02:05,580
it's the past five years so sometimes

2482
02:02:12,950 --> 02:02:08,699
it's better to just focus on a specific

2483
02:02:17,089 --> 02:02:12,960
era of history or a specific story or a

2484
02:02:19,370 --> 02:02:17,099
specific crew like uh out west in Utah

2485
02:02:22,790 --> 02:02:19,380
and see what you can find out about

2486
02:02:27,770 --> 02:02:22,800
people like that and absolutely

2487
02:02:31,430 --> 02:02:29,510
Well Jack thanks again so much for

2488
02:02:33,250 --> 02:02:31,440
coming on this evening

2489
02:02:36,649 --> 02:02:33,260
um I'm gonna take you off the stream

2490
02:02:40,370 --> 02:02:36,659
thank you so much nope there you go um

2491
02:02:42,350 --> 02:02:40,380
yeah he's gone uh Kimball Nick anything

2492
02:02:45,050 --> 02:02:42,360
going on with you guys before we wrap up

2493
02:02:47,270 --> 02:02:45,060
I've been busy Lydia it's like coming up

2494
02:02:50,689 --> 02:02:47,280
to the holidays I I'm still sitting on

2495
02:02:52,729 --> 02:02:50,699
that uh thread of uh tweets about John

2496
02:02:54,709 --> 02:02:52,739
Brennan's comment about uh a different

2497
02:02:56,030 --> 02:02:54,719
form of life that I'll I'll release at

2498
02:02:58,250 --> 02:02:56,040
some point but

2499
02:02:59,990 --> 02:02:58,260
um honestly I just haven't really felt

2500
02:03:01,669 --> 02:03:00,000
like uh I've been too busy that I don't

2501
02:03:03,890 --> 02:03:01,679
want to sit around and receive the

2502
02:03:05,530 --> 02:03:03,900
negative comments yet and there will be

2503
02:03:09,109 --> 02:03:05,540
a day for that but it has not come yet

2504
02:03:11,270 --> 02:03:09,119
Twitter's like a loose Buffet man I need

2505
02:03:15,970 --> 02:03:11,280
it's like it's punishment I need to be

2506
02:03:21,229 --> 02:03:18,649
get back to the self-flagellation of

2507
02:03:24,050 --> 02:03:21,239
posting on Twitter absolutely yeah yeah

2508
02:03:33,189 --> 02:03:24,060
New Year yeah middle of that

2509
02:03:38,330 --> 02:03:36,890
I've been like working my tail off uh

2510
02:03:40,970 --> 02:03:38,340
leading into the new year but I'm super

2511
02:03:43,030 --> 02:03:40,980
excited uh finally got like a skeleton

2512
02:03:45,229 --> 02:03:43,040
up of my Art Bell project

2513
02:03:47,089 --> 02:03:45,239
the legacy of our Bell and Coast to

2514
02:03:48,950 --> 02:03:47,099
Coast AM I'm gonna be building in public

2515
02:03:50,930 --> 02:03:48,960
so like building out this archive and

2516
02:03:52,189 --> 02:03:50,940
repository for people to kind of follow

2517
02:03:53,450 --> 02:03:52,199
along

2518
02:03:54,790 --> 02:03:53,460
um I think that's really good like I

2519
02:03:56,990 --> 02:03:54,800
think building in public is really

2520
02:03:58,729 --> 02:03:57,000
instructive and also it helps keep me

2521
02:04:01,129 --> 02:03:58,739
accountable right talking about my

2522
02:04:02,629 --> 02:04:01,139
project making sure I get things done

2523
02:04:04,010 --> 02:04:02,639
um that's so cool so I'm working on that

2524
02:04:07,370 --> 02:04:04,020
yeah

2525
02:04:09,290 --> 02:04:07,380
um and then uh in terms of the show uh

2526
02:04:11,510 --> 02:04:09,300
we are off next week everyone's doing

2527
02:04:14,450 --> 02:04:11,520
their holiday stuff I will be sitting in

2528
02:04:16,189 --> 02:04:14,460
silent retreat with a Zen Monastery

2529
02:04:18,050 --> 02:04:16,199
um and then we will we will be

2530
02:04:19,310 --> 02:04:18,060
regrouping the first Wednesday in

2531
02:04:21,709 --> 02:04:19,320
January

2532
02:04:23,689 --> 02:04:21,719
um I figure not totally sure what we'll

2533
02:04:26,390 --> 02:04:23,699
be talking about but I can say that the

2534
02:04:26,990 --> 02:04:26,400
18th we'll be talking to Sarah skulls

2535
02:04:29,089 --> 02:04:27,000
um

2536
02:04:32,270 --> 02:04:29,099
renowned researcher and writer writing a

2537
02:04:33,950 --> 02:04:32,280
ton about ufology uh UFOs aliens Etc and

2538
02:04:36,290 --> 02:04:33,960
a bunch of other cool stuff

2539
02:04:38,089 --> 02:04:36,300
um and certainly if anyone has any

2540
02:04:39,830 --> 02:04:38,099
guests or subjects you'd like us to

2541
02:04:42,470 --> 02:04:39,840
cover please feel free to reach out

2542
02:04:43,850 --> 02:04:42,480
either on Discord or on Twitter DM

2543
02:04:45,229 --> 02:04:43,860
someone in the comments said that

2544
02:04:46,850 --> 02:04:45,239
Campbell will be appearing on their

2545
02:04:49,850 --> 02:04:46,860
podcast this week

2546
02:04:51,350 --> 02:04:49,860
Campbell uh oh is that uh the Earth that

2547
02:04:52,910 --> 02:04:51,360
they said I wasn't looking okay yeah

2548
02:04:55,550 --> 02:04:52,920
yeah she

2549
02:04:56,450 --> 02:04:55,560
uh great uh podcast started about

2550
02:05:00,109 --> 02:04:56,460
um

2551
02:05:04,609 --> 02:05:00,119
the uh stories from people who have seen

2552
02:05:06,050 --> 02:05:04,619
like orbs of some kind and I agreed to

2553
02:05:09,589 --> 02:05:06,060
do it because it was a very interesting

2554
02:05:12,830 --> 02:05:09,599
project and I went in one of my

2555
02:05:15,050 --> 02:05:12,840
hypnagogic experiences saw a what I

2556
02:05:16,729 --> 02:05:15,060
would call a sphere or an orb in my room

2557
02:05:18,229 --> 02:05:16,739
my interpretation of it is different

2558
02:05:20,990 --> 02:05:18,239
from a lot of other peoples that we talk

2559
02:05:22,550 --> 02:05:21,000
to but I I think it's a very neat

2560
02:05:25,070 --> 02:05:22,560
project because it's just all the

2561
02:05:26,810 --> 02:05:25,080
different uh perceptions experiences and

2562
02:05:28,010 --> 02:05:26,820
um you know there was no judgment no uh

2563
02:05:29,930 --> 02:05:28,020
sort of projection

2564
02:05:32,510 --> 02:05:29,940
um it was just it was very a neat convo

2565
02:05:34,910 --> 02:05:32,520
so uh I actually haven't heard it uh the

2566
02:05:36,470 --> 02:05:34,920
final product but I'm excited too that

2567
02:05:38,149 --> 02:05:36,480
sounds awesome sounds like it's this

2568
02:05:40,970 --> 02:05:38,159
week so I'm gonna be on the lookout for

2569
02:05:42,350 --> 02:05:40,980
it nice yeah keep us looped in and uh

2570
02:05:44,390 --> 02:05:42,360
we'll we'll talk about it when we're

2571
02:05:46,310 --> 02:05:44,400
back after the New Year well gentlemen

2572
02:05:48,109 --> 02:05:46,320
thank you so much again for another

2573
02:05:50,390 --> 02:05:48,119
successful Round Table the invisible

2574
02:05:52,550 --> 02:05:50,400
night school have a great holiday happy

2575
02:05:56,810 --> 02:05:52,560
New Year and uh we'll see you all New

2576
02:06:03,000 --> 02:05:56,820
Year happy holidays everyone yep see ya

2577
02:07:06,830 --> 02:06:25,800
[Music]

2578
02:07:06,840 --> 02:07:12,730
foreign